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Forums - Sony - When do you think Sony will allow PS2 playback on the 40GB PS3??

Kasz216 said:
Dogs Rule said:
bbsin said:
Too bad they can't get all the custom emulation/rom programmers and hackers to work on it. I'd bet if they all work together, it wouldn't take too long for PS2 emulators on the 40gb model. Those guys are talented.

I agree. It's amazing what the hacker community could do if given the proper tools and permissions. (EDIT) And it could almost be done for free, well at the risk of compromising the security of the rest of the PS3 library.

The hacker community hasn't even created a PS2 emulator yet for PC(to my knoledge).... let alone one for the Cell which would be completely foreign to the,.

 

Which is why I said "if given the proper tools and permission" I should have added  guidance too. With than surely something could be accomplished.

 



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Kasz216 said:
Dogs Rule said:
bbsin said:
Too bad they can't get all the custom emulation/rom programmers and hackers to work on it. I'd bet if they all work together, it wouldn't take too long for PS2 emulators on the 40gb model. Those guys are talented.

I agree. It's amazing what the hacker community could do if given the proper tools and permissions. (EDIT) And it could almost be done for free, well at the risk of compromising the security of the rest of the PS3 library.

The hacker community hasn't even created a decent PS2 emulator yet for PC(to my knoledge).... let alone one for the Cell which would be completely foreign to the,.

 


  When i visited China, some of my cousins/friends had a PS2 emulator running on their PCs. Not sure if ALL games work, but FF10 and Tekken5 sure does. Either way, Hackers don't work together because they all want some cred, let them work together and they could probably accomplish anything reasonable. But that's never going to happen so w/e.

Kyros said:
I think that had the PS3 had multiple GPUs and not just one with SPUs around it, it would have been a much more robust and flexible system to develop for.


You mean CPUs right? GPUs are parallel anyway and apart from SLI systems you won't have multiple.

And for CPUs I think you are mistaken. Vector machines like the Cell have many advantages and are most likely a big part of the future. Just putting multiple cores on a die is just so much waste because you simply do not need all these circuits multiple times. In raw floating point power the Cell and possible successors will destroy everything that competes against them. And it just scales extremely well. So it would be a major surprise if the CPU successor would be very different.

ITs not the most important part of the console though. The GPU is more important.

That was a typo, but it wasn't CPU I meant to say.  It was PPU.

Right now you need to look at the Cell's single PPU as the workhorse of the PS3 and the brain of the SPUs.  It not only functions to control the SPUs but it also functions on its own to handle multiple tasks.  The SPUs lack the ability to do the latter.

This is why when you hear developers talking about optimization for the PS3 (most recenty Terminal Reality), you hear them talking about organization in terms of what each SPU is doing.  This SPU is doing sound, these SPUs are doing physics...etc.  You don't hear them say "This SPU is doing sound and physics" because that's now how SPUs are designed to work.  They do one thing at a time and they do it efficiently.

By comparison the PPU (or your average CPU these days) can multiple tasks simultaneously.  When you're straight number crunching (model looks more like an assembly line) or can delegate tasks in terms of batches, singleminded SPUs are awesome.  However what happens when you need to do more but your SPUs are all busy?  You either queue up the item to an SPU after it finishes a task or you run it through the PPU which is juggling lots of different tasks.  If your SPUs are dedicated (to sound, physics...etc) they're never going to be free so the more you need to do, the more work gets piled onto the PPU.

Now imagine an architecture featuring several the same number of cores the PS3 has where each core can do its own juggling where you can divy tasks not just by number but by intensity/resource usage as well and you have the concept I'm speaking of.  The developers don't have to worry about task juggling but rather resource management which, while also not simple, would still give more freedom.

That's my understanding of it all anyway.  ^_^



They would rather sell PS classics online than have BC.



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Whether they are downloaded or on discs, they will still need to be run, CDiablo. A BC solution that would work for PS2 downloads from the PSN would also logically work for disk tittles, until the PSN onces are ported.



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jlauro said:
Maybe they thought they could, but the cell isn't as fast as they expected and can't handle emulating the PS2 fully in software.

 It has nothing to do with the Cell and everything to do with the incredibly fast EDRAM that was on the GS chip. That shit is really, really, really hard to emulate. A PS2 emulator has existed for many years on the PC and it's still total shit when it comes to game compatibility. I don 't know if there's a single game you can actually play all the way through without encountering major issues.

 The PS2 is just that hard to emulate.



CDiablo said:
They would rather sell PS classics online than have BC.

 that doesn't make sense as the ps classics are ps1 games and every single ps3 has full ps1 backwards compatibility.



Anyone who says the GS can't be emulated is ignorant and/or a troll. Sony has access all of the documentation on the architecture of the chip, which means even entry-level programmers at Sony could produce an emulator with enough time. Yes, it's an exceptionally complex chip, and actually would require experienced programmers to make it function well and have it completed in a reasonable time. But, if amatures can build emulators for processors they don't have full documentation for, Sony can build an emulator for their own chips. And it's really that lack of documentation (and, to a degree, eDRAM) that keeps hackers from producing a fully working emulator.

The reasons why it hasn't happened yet have been covered in part by SpartanFX, since the lack of BC does encourage further PS2 sales while it does little to harm PS3 sales since most people who buy one still have a PS2. Frankly, it's not good business sense to put a lot of resources into rushing it out when they need to rush out new games instead. It'll come, but at a time when it doesn't detract from PS3 software sales and PS2 hardware sales.  All things said, it's not worth the effort yet, but that doesn't mean it won't be.

Oh, and Fishy, for it to be more expensive than keeping the GS is a pretty tall order. If they produced only 20 million 40GB units then your suggestion would mean that the emulator would cost more than $60 million to program. Considerign the fact that they essentially already have the plans for how the emulator should be built (since they know how the chip was build) you're suggesting they'd have to devote a couple million man-hours to program it. I think your suggestion is a bit ridiculous.

@Deviation59

So that you know, every cell chip comes with a small amount of eDRAM.  Less than the GS, but enough to make a work-around possible.



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SpartanFX said:
They will update 40 gb PS3 at some point via firmware so it becomes BC,,

why not now?first of all PS2 sales would decrease which is something they don't want now since PS2 is giving them huge profits.

Demand for PS3 will rise which again will lead to more loss for sony right now since every PS3 is sold at $130 loss for sony.

At two times you could see software BC on 40 gb via a firmware that might cost something like $20:

1.when PS2 is officially discountinued
2.When PS3 starts to return profit instead of loss(that profit should be higher than the profit PS2 makes)

that is from a business stand point of view.

sounds about right to me



DMeisterJ said:
Not at all, the lack of the chip necessary to do this makes it fairly impossible.

 the main problem isnt even the GSX, its the missing ram that is faster then the current ram in the PS3.



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