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Forums - Microsoft - In defense of Microsoft: A response to DMeisterJ

bbsin on 08 May 2008


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Final-Fan on 08 May 2008

One of the big problems, Slimebeast, is that you are making statements like "The trend is Xbox is in an upward spiral (24 mill--->50 mill) while PS is going downwards (115 mill--->60 mill). In next gen Xbox 3 will outsell the PS4, going by trends." This is completely bogus. There are many things that will be radically different/unknown about next gen:
--Nintendo's console will not be as underpowered compared to the competition
--Sony's console will not have a superexpensive new disk format
--People will not trust MS's hardware as much
--If the PS4 uses a Cell-type processor, it will not be unfamiliar to developers and it will probably be cheaper
--All consoles will use motion controls to varying degrees of effectiveness (MS's motion controller is probably just being made as an experiment so they can get it right when it's the main controller)
--Nintendo may or may not do something completely crazy
--and more

That's ignoring the fact that your "trend" is a line drawn between two points ... one of which doesn't even exist yet! And these are just the first glaring criticisms that came to mind.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

bbsin on 08 May 2008
Slimebeast said:
 

1. Okay, estimations change by time, and they aren't facts. I agree. But it's the only thing we got. Let's not call my numbers (50 mill X360 and 60 mill PS3) facts, let's call them my opinion.

That's right, opinions =/= facts, remember that.

2. MS Entertainment division will survive if it continues to show profit. You know that too.

Microsoft's Entertainment division will probably always survive, but if they can't profit past the initial investment for building and marketing their consoles, they'll have to find ways to profit some way else... you know what that means don't you?

3. So far Sony has lost money on PS3 like MS has on X360. Your argument sucks. Being first in a gen rocks.

You're confused. My arguement wasn't that MS/Sony loses money whenever they make a console, that's obvious. The point is that each console has to be able to sustain a long life cycle in order for them to really profit far past their initial costs. Both sony's and MSoft's business model is to profit by royalties, services and reducing manufacturing price. So you're basically arguing that MS is apparently going to profit by focusing on rushing out another console before everyone else while Sony sits there and continue to profit with the PS3.

And also, being first to a gen doesn't mean anything, as a matter of fact leading off a generation usually results in anything but first place. Which console ended up winning? Saturn = no, Dreamcast = no, Xbox360 = ....yes? no.

4. Okay, Wii is number one. I never disputed that. And yes Playstation as a brand is still bigger than Xbox thanks to the PSPS and overlap from PS2 into this gen, but if you pick out PS3 (which is the Playstation representative of this gen) and match it against the X360 the PR strength or "hipness" factor is about equal.

Okay, so a second ago, you say that the Xbox brand is as popular ("hip") as the PS brand and now it's not true? News flash buddy, the PS2 is still selling well and the PSP sales has been surging as of late. And now you're saying that you're only counting the PS3 to represent the entire PS brand? That's called MSSMS my friend, way to backtread.

6. So Sony messed up pricing and marketing? Yeah, I know too that Sony sucks. Yet no matter how you spin things MS and XBOX will most likely use the early gen advantage in next gen. Yes, the PS3 is catching up the X360 currently, but fact is that the X360 has sold 18.7 million consoles and the PS3 only 12.4 million. So what do you say to that? Epic fail for the PS3. My argument was about MS catching up generation for generation, and that's something no one can deny.

*sigh*. Ok so based off of your opinion the PS3 is "epic fail" and Sony "sucks", yet Sony is beating the 360 with a far less game library, much more expensive pricing and horrible start, week by week in all the regions... I just can't figure out your fanboy logic, one moment you say the PS3 will outsell the 360 by 10 million and the next moment the PS3 is epic fail? c'mon you could do better than that.

Also your argument is horrible and have no realistic base behind it. You are assuming that the next Xbox consoles will only increasingly get better and better while assuming that Playstation consoles will fall off the planet and continue to dwindle down forever based on market trends (something that you have no idea about)....again, you must be infected with MSSMS, the only cure i know of is by sticking your foot in your mouth and stop posting, it's the only way.

Yes, MS hasn't been as good as Sony as promoting the "hipness" factor of Xbox compared to PS (and probably have less cost for advertising than Sony). But apparently MS have a different strategy. To let the games talk for themselves.

So that whole MS being as "hip" as Sony statement you've made is out the window now? Backtreading again i see. This time you brought some proofless excuses with you. GJ.

Sony fanboys probably have nothing to do but to hang around forums, while X360 fans are busy gaming.

TBH. Here are the Xbox360 games I've played recently... Bully:SE. Here are the PS3 games I've been playing recently... HSG, GT5P, MGO. Everything else is Multiplatform, so that's another false assumption made by you, comment disregarded. Either way, aren't you a Xboxfan? If so, why do you spend so much time spinning negative facts to the Xbox's favor?


 



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Final-Fan on 08 May 2008
bbsin said:
4. Okay, Wii is number one. I never disputed that. And yes Playstation as a brand is still bigger than Xbox thanks to the PSPS and overlap from PS2 into this gen, but if you pick out PS3 (which is the Playstation representative of this gen) and match it against the X360 the PR strength or "hipness" factor is about equal.

Okay, so a second ago, you say that the Xbox brand is as popular ("hip") as the PS brand and now it's not true? News flash buddy, the PS2 is still selling well and the PSP sales has been surging as of late. And now you're saying that you're only counting the PS3 to represent the entire PS brand? That's called MSSMS my friend, way to backtread.
He's saying that the PlayStation brand is stronger than the Xbox brand, but if you look ONLY at the PS3 vs. 360 (excluding both the PS2 and PSP) then they are about equal in street cred.

I admit it's kind of unfair to compare the 360 to the whole PlayStation family SDF-style, but I have to say that the PSP is in fact this gen and a good asset for Sony's brand strength, which also helps the PS3; and the PS2 still casts a huge shadow. It may be unfair to MS but ignoring all that just because MS will look bad* if you don't ignore it is just foolish.

*Or more accurately, because Slimebeast's argument will be destroyed if he doesn't.

Other than that, a good post exposing some interesting fallacies, self-contradiction, etc. 

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Rock_on_2008 on 08 May 2008
Slimebeast said:
I have no problem with Wii-fans. They are welcome with their arguments.

Yes, it is a war, and it is between MS and Sony.

 I am a member of  the SSS = Sony Secret Services. I am here to take down any MS fan on every gaming forum site.



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SnowWhitesDrug on 08 May 2008

goodness this thread has draged on since I was here yesterday, i thought it was coming to a close and that all the arguements had been said and delt with :( of topic though, wii fit was awesome last night! I really enjoyed it! mmm some one in the office is eating something with gravey! oh it smells so good!!!



If at first you don't succeed, you fail

Rock_on_2008 on 08 May 2008
SnowWhitesDrug said:
goodness this thread has draged on since I was here yesterday, i thought it was coming to a close and that all the arguements had been said and delt with :( of topic though, wii fit was awesome last night! I really enjoyed it! mmm some one in the office is eating something with gravey! oh it smells so good!!!

 Take that MS fan. Where is your defence? lol. A Wii fan takes the thread off-topic and mentions his experience with Wii Fit. lol.



starcraft on 08 May 2008
Final-Fan said:
starcraft said:
Final-Fan said:
I don't know if you should be so eager to think that epinefridis really does understand the situation instead of just agreeing with you because your opinion happens to match his. He came right out and said that if he could he'd blind himself to all differing opinions.

More importantly, I notice that you responded to pretty much everyone except me. Why is that?
Because I left the thread?

Anyway back now, I'll deal with your post below.
What I meant was that back when you did about half a dozen responses to various people you seem to have missed this one:
Final-Fan said:
starcraft said:
Final-Fan said:
2. I guess I did incorrectly argue "PS3 vs. 360" instead of "360?"; however, (A) I think that your OP had serious overtones of that itself from which I took my cue; and (B) I don't think you've adequately made your case that the 360 is going to avoid entering a period of decline by tapping the current PS2 userbase. The 360 is not the PS2 and price cuts didn't help the Gamecube or Xbox as much as I think you expect them to help the 360.
[...]
4. "Redact ... to obscure or remove (text) from a document prior to publication or release" When I say that he did not "redact" any part of his OP, that means that he did not remove any incriminating material talking about (for instance) SW sales. AFAIK the original portion of the OP is unaltered; his notes above it are merely a (large) annotation. If you look carefully at that OP, even without the big flashy warnings it's clear that, although he uses GTA (SW) as a milestone, the subject of his question is HW. The numbers he cites are HW. The numbers he talks about are HW. Why would it now follow that the numbers he is asking a question about would not be HW?

I said "if you look carefully", and it's painfully clear that very few took the time to do so with DMeisterJ's question on a very touchy subject -- exactly the kind of situation that calls for careful reading. Next time check your dictionary if you don't know the definition of a word.

Finally, as for the post you quoted, is he now not allowed to respond to other people who talk about SW? In fact, his initial response to the post in question talked about HW instead of SW, suggesting that DMeisterJ was concentrating his attention on HW discussion to the point that he didn't even notice that someone else had brought SW into it!

DMeisterJ's OP talked about HW. Not SW. SW got dragged into the fray by other people and DMeisterJ simply failed to jump on them like a rabid badger to keep the thread on topic ... until it became obvious that there were many people misinterpreting the OP, at which point he clarified, and re-clarified, and bolded and underlined etc. Shame on him?
2. I don't need to show that the Xbox 360 won't enter a decline because it will tap the PS2 userbase. All I need to show to prove my point is that it can do it beyond the present, and it is. It's sales are up year over year. Unless your suggesting that will change next week?

4. Of course he is allowed to respond to people that talk about software, am I not allowed to respond to his response? I didn't say that all of his statements were established in the OP of his thread did I?

Read the third line of my OP:

"But it culminated in DMeisterJ's thread"
2. I'm not sure what you mean by "beyond the present". Are you suggesting that DMeisterJ was insinuating something along the lines of "OMG 360 sales will die now that GTAIV is out!!! lol"? Because I'm pretty sure that's not what he meant by "beginning of the end". That would be "the end".

4. Yes, but the POINT is that his post, which you quoted, was not (as you allege) an elaboration of the line of questioning of the OP, but rather a comment on the SW argument someone had made in the thread. By jumping on that you deny him the right to pursue parallel lines of discussion apart from the OP subject. He may have made SW arguments in other threads but this thread was explicitly limited to HW sales, despite the provocative title.

You can make any allegations you like about this being the apex of "360 fad will die soon" sentiment, but if you are now trying to refer to posts and discussions occurring in other threads then perhaps you ought to quote them instead.

Going back to the "failure of logic" premise of my first post, what I mean is that this: "Many people often fail to realize that whenever a PS2 owner buys an Xbox 360, Sony normally loses a customer and future revenue, whilst Microsoft gains a customer and future revenue." makes no sense with respect to either the PS3 or the 360. It makes perfect sense discussing the PS2 vs. PS3 situation, of which I think we are all well aware, but that has nothing to do with the current gen. That is the mental association I made with the common "sunk costs" mistake. (It is also valid when discussing the financial or overall fortunes of Sony, which is well outside the scope of these discussions.) Half your OP revolves around this irrelevancy.
I didn't mean the post eleven minutes before the one asking why you didn't respond! That would really be impatient. (Oh, and since I've gotten burned before, please be gentle if I'm somehow overlooking a response you did make.)

(Bolded points in order)

1. By "Beyond the present" I meant that my point is proven as long as the Xbox 360 continues to sell to PS2 owners (in decent quantities of course) for a substantial period of time from  this point onwards.  I think that the insinuation in the original thread was clearly meant to imply that the Xbox 360 (though not "dead") would become something of an irrelevance henceforth, and that it would begin a general decline from now on.  I think with continued year-over-year increases, more exclusives, more multiplatforms that were exclusive on the PS2 and another price drop, the Xbox 360 will demonstrate that it is not in a recession and it IS taking PS2 userbase and therefore IS taking Sony customers.

2.  I don't think I've denied anyone anything.  There are people in this thread discussing HW, SW, profits etc, and I haven't attacked any of them for it.  If you meant the other thread, you should be aware that it was locked BEFORE I began this thread, so it wouldn't be within my capacity to futher deny anyone a right of response in that thread either.

3.  This thread has, from the beginning, been about both a Microsoft vs Sony comparison AND an Xbox 360 vs the PS3 comparision.  However, the latter came about more because it has become impossible to discuss the competitive capabilities of one console without discussing those of the other.  Below is the third paragraph of my OP which was meant to sum up my position:

I want to examine GTAIV for a moment, because an understanding of what this game represents is critical to understanding the fact that this week just gone, Sony lost more consumers than it has in any other week since the generation began.  Thats right, Sony LOST CONSUMERS!  For weeks now, Sony fans have been highlighting the close association GTA has with the Playstation brand, and inadvertedely showing us that this week gone was never Microsoft's to win, it was always Sony's to lose.  But Microsoft DID win, and Sony DID lose.  Read on.

 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

Strategyking92 on 08 May 2008
Rock_on_2008 said:
Slimebeast said:
I have no problem with Wii-fans. They are welcome with their arguments.

Yes, it is a war, and it is between MS and Sony.

 I am a member of  the SSS = Sony Secret Services. I am here to take down any MS fan on every gaming forum site.


well, you haven't won any arguments so far, so..... try again? not?



And that's the only thing I need is *this*. I don't need this or this. Just this PS4... And this gaming PC. - The PS4 and the Gaming PC and that's all I need... And this Xbox 360. - The PS4, the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360, and that's all I need... And these PS3's. - The PS4, and these PS3's, and the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360... And this Nintendo DS. - The PS4, this Xbox 360, and the Gaming PC, and the PS3's, and that's all *I* need. And that's *all* I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one... I need this. - The Gaming PC and PS4, and Xbox 360, and thePS3's . Well what are you looking at? What do you think I'm some kind of a jerk or something! - And this. That's all I need.

Obligatory dick measuring Gaming Laptop Specs: Sager NP8270-GTX: 17.3" FULL HD (1920X1080) LED Matte LC, nVIDIA GeForce GTX 780M, Intel Core i7-4700MQ, 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3, 750GB SATA II 3GB/s 7,200 RPM Hard Drive

Rock_on_2008 on 08 May 2008

Starcraft your weak arguments make no sense at all. PS3 sold 90k more hardware for the week. A higher GTA Iv attachment rate on the PS3 (28%) than the 360 (19%). How did Sony fail? I say Sony won the week by 90k. End of story.

Starcraft for once in your life, please admit that the  360 lost and you were wrong. PS3 was victorious.