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Forums - Gaming Discussion - (Update) Rumor: PlayStation 5 will be using Navi 9 (more powerful than Navi 10), new update Jason Schreier said Sony aim more then 10,7 Teraflop

 

How accurate this rumored is compared to the reality

Naah 26 35.62%
 
Its 90% close 14 19.18%
 
it's 80% close 8 10.96%
 
it's 70% close 5 6.85%
 
it's 50% close 13 17.81%
 
it's 30% close 7 9.59%
 
Total:73

 

Pemalite said: 

There is a massive need. The fact that AMD is a generation or two behind nVidia is a testament to that very fact.

No, it's not. It only reflects the fact that AMD spent very little engineering resources on the last two generational GCN updates. It doesn't necessarily mean there are major inherent flaws in the GCN architecture. What do you propose? A switch back to a VLIW architecture?

Out of curiosity, what are the "multitude of bottlenecks" of GCN that needs a revolutionary architecture and can't be overcome by evolutionary/generational updates to the GCN architecture?

Pemalite said: 

It's always an issue.

No, it's not. Evidently, neither AMDs nor nVidias architectures exhibit any significant inefficiencies due to not being able to feed the CUs with rasterized pixels in a 16CU configuration at 1080p, because of parallelization. Why would it suddenly become a problem for 64CUs@4K? Sure, if one goes wide enough, eventually one will run out of work to parallelize. There is no empiric evidence we've reached that point due to screen-space issues.

Last edited by Straffaren666 - on 16 March 2019

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drkohler said:

I don't think you understand what Permalite is saying (or in what troubles AMD is with its design philosophy).

Well, the only two things I've said are 1) That I wouldn't rule out more than 64CUs in PS5 (I never claimed there will be more than 64CUs), based on the fact that the PS4 Pro, built on 16nm, has 36CUs and that there is about a 3x density improvement, according to TSMC, when going from their 16nm to their 7nm. 2) The die area reductions achieved by Vega 7 is not a good measurement for the 7nm process node, due to it being a low volume niche product.

What is it I don't understand?

Last edited by Straffaren666 - on 16 March 2019

 

Pemalite said: 
In the end though, depending on what kind of library you use, 7nm isn't a 3x density over 14nm anyway. - If you were to compare worst to best, maybe... Apples to apples you are probably looking at a 1.5x-2x improvement.

I never claimed it to be a 3x density improvement over 14nm. TSMC claims their 7nm process node yields about a 3x density improvment over 16nm, which is the process node the Pro is built on and was the relevant frame of reference here. To be more precise, TSMC claims the density improvement to be 3.1.

Last edited by Straffaren666 - on 16 March 2019

Mr Puggsly said:

While a mobile Playstation 5 just cant happen. You dont get modern home console graphics on a handheld device. Switch is $299 and people are impressed when it makes PS3 graphics.

Yea I do not see it happening, unless Sony is willing to cut significant features that the potential PS5 may have just to have a portable version.

Not sure if the tech is there to create a portable 4K (or whatever the PS5 may have in power) console at an affordable price (ranging between $299-349) when phones are significantly more expensive than the Switch.

Sony would probably not want to bleed money with such a version.



Straffaren666 said:

No, it's not. It only reflects the fact that AMD spent very little engineering resources on the last two generational GCN updates. It doesn't necessarily mean there are major inherent flaws in the GCN architecture. What do you propose? A switch back to a VLIW architecture?

Out of curiosity, what are the "multitude of bottlenecks" of GCN that needs a revolutionary architecture and can't be overcome by evolutionary/generational updates to the GCN architecture?

AMD has spent a ton of engineering resources on Vega.
It implemented all of Polaris's improvements like Instruction Prefetching and a larger instruction buffer which increased the IPC of each pipe as there is less wave stalls.

But one of Graphics Core Next's largest bottlenecks is... Geometry. Which is ironic considering AMD was pushing Tessellation even back in 2001 when the Playstation 2 was flaunting it's stuff.
To that end... AMD introduced the Primitive Discard Accelerator, which abolishes triangles that are to small and pointless to render.. We also saw the introduction of an Index cache, which stores instanced geometry next to the caches.

Graphics Core Next also tends to be ROP limited, which is why AMD reworked them on Polaris which saw a boost to Delta Colour Compression, Larger L2 caches and so on.

And then with Vega AMD kicked it up again by introducing the Draw Stream Binning Rasterization... Which is where Vega gains the ability to bin polygons on a tiled-basis... That in conjunction with the Primitive Discard Accelerator means a significant reduction in the amount of geometry work that needs to be done, boosting geometry throughput substantially.

On the ROP side of the equation... AMD made the ROPS a client of the L2 cache rather than the memory controller, which as L2 caches increases means the ROPS can better leverage it to bolster overall performance... And also enables render-to-texture instead to a frame--buffer, it's a boon for deferred engines.

And then we have the primitive shader too.

In short... Just during the Polaris/Vega introductions a ton of engineering has been done to the geometry side of the equation, it's always been a sore point with AMD's hardware even going back to Terascale.

Straffaren666 said:
No, it's not. Evidently, neither AMDs nor nVidias architectures exhibit any significant inefficiencies due to not being able to feed the CUs with rasterized pixels in a 16CU configuration at 1080p, because of parallelization. Why would it suddenly become a problem for 64CUs@4K? Sure, if one goes wide enough, eventually one will run out of work to parallelize. There is no empiric evidence we've reached that point due to screen-space issues.

Yes it is. The entire reason why Terascale 3 ever existed was because load balancing for VLIW5 was starting to get meddlesome as often there were parts of the array being underutilized...
The solution? Reduce it down to VLIW4.

It is also why AMD hasn't pushed out past 64 CU's. They potentially can... But that would require a significant overhaul of various parts of Graphics Core Next in order to balance the load and get more efficient utilization.

It's not always about going big and going home... Graphics Core Next tends to already be substantially larger, slower and hotter than the nVidia equivalent anyway.

Straffaren666 said:

Well, the only two things I've said are 1) That I wouldn't rule out more than 64CUs in PS5 (I never claimed there will be more than 64CUs), based on the fact that the PS4 Pro, built on 16nm, has 36CUs and that there is about a 3x density improvement, according to TSMC, when going from their 16nm to their 7nm. 2) The die area reductions achieved by Vega 7 is not a good measurement for the 7nm process node, due to it being a low volume niche product.

What is it I don't understand?

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12677/tsmc-kicks-off-volume-production-of-7nm-chips

Apparently there isn't a 3x density improvement? Got a link to substantiate your claims?

Straffaren666 said:
Pemalite said: 
In the end though, depending on what kind of library you use, 7nm isn't a 3x density over 14nm anyway. - If you were to compare worst to best, maybe... Apples to apples you are probably looking at a 1.5x-2x improvement.

I never claimed it to be a 3x density improvement over 14nm. TSMC claims their 7nm process node yields about a 3x density improvment over 16nm, which is the process node the Pro is built on and was the relevant frame of reference here. To be more precise, TSMC claims the density improvement to be 3.1.

Hence why I stated if it was an "Apples to Apples" comparison.

16nm is just advertising fluff anyway, it's not a true 16nm process.



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This is not possible for a 500 dollar console unlesss sony wants to take a major loss lol.

The GPU that equates to a 2080 is going to be around 600 dollars itself. The processor they list would be the equivalent nearly to the current ryzen 2700 which is a 270 dollar CPU. That isn't including everything else. The CPU is believable, but the amount of Ram and GPU are pipedreams for a reasonably priced console.



errorpwns said:

This is not possible for a 500 dollar console unlesss sony wants to take a major loss lol.

The GPU that equates to a 2080 is going to be around 600 dollars itself. The processor they list would be the equivalent nearly to the current ryzen 2700 which is a 270 dollar CPU. That isn't including everything else. The CPU is believable, but the amount of Ram and GPU are pipedreams for a reasonably priced console.

Not to mention going above certain wattage thresholds makes things way, way more difficult with regulations from environmental and energy agencies. For instance, power supply safety standards change, requirements for electrical and heat insulation/dispersal change etc. and all of that costs more and more money.



 

 

 

 

 

errorpwns said:

This is not possible for a 500 dollar console unlesss sony wants to take a major loss lol.

The GPU that equates to a 2080 is going to be around 600 dollars itself. The processor they list would be the equivalent nearly to the current ryzen 2700 which is a 270 dollar CPU. That isn't including everything else. The CPU is believable, but the amount of Ram and GPU are pipedreams for a reasonably priced console.

But what about in a year and a half at Sony costs?



I am Iron Man

Pemalite said: 
Intrinsic said:

If you really want to analyze die space usage ou have to do a lot better than that. Take the XB1Xfor instance, it has 12GB of GDDR5 RAM.. its memory controllers fit into a chip thats about 350mm2 along with a CPu and  40CU GPU. Going from 12GB of GDDR5 to 24GB of GDDR6 (just an example) will take the same amount of space with regards to on chip memory controllers. Its been calculated that the Ryzen CPU will take about the sameamount of space on a die that jaguar takes right now. That leaves a gd dalaount of space for the GPU.

Ryzen 3 is about 80mm2 for an 8-core complex at 7nm.
Jaguar is 24.8mm2 for an 8-core complex at 28nm.

That doesn't include things like I/O.

At the end of the day, CPU cores themselves tend to be relatively small anyway, it's everything tacked on to hide bandwidth and latency (I.E. Caches) that drives die sizes of CPU's up.

 

Its not really an apples to apples comparison though.... cause I/O in a dedicated CPu and I/O in an APu are kinda two very difeent things.

How about this... 

AMD Ryzen 3 3600G (7nm)

  • 8C/16T 
  • CPU clock 3.2GHz base/ 4Ghz Boost
  • Navi 20CU GPU
  • TDP 95W
  • MSRP (rumored) ~$225
AMD Ryzen 3 3600 (7nm)
  • 8C/16T
  • CPU clock 3.2Ghz base/ 4.4Ghz boost
  • TDP 65W
  • MSRP ~$200
I think that is where we need to start looking at things from. This is the closest thing to an apples to apples comparison we will see. Here are my takeaways.
  • TDP for a spec of the chip (at least the CPU)  is only 95W for CPU and a 20CU GPU. But thats to accomodate a CPU that is designed to clock as high as 4Ghz.
  • Addition of a 20CU Navi GPU (of unknown clock for now) raises TDP of the package by 30W.
When that chip is released later this year, we can then look atthe size of the chip and see where it falls in the whole 200mm2 to 400mm2 range. 


BraLoD said:
Robert_Downey_Jr. said:

But what about in a year and a half at Sony costs?

People tend to forget Sony/MS will be buying components in the millions of units from the get go.

If I buy 3 of something in the market I can already get a discount. Imagine if I buy 5 milion units at once and the vendor knows I may be needing to buy up to 100M in the next five years? Sony and MS probably gets massive amounts of discount on anything they put in their consoles, specially Sony as the PS consoles are basically guaranteed to go around 100M units made.

This.  No futher words.

 



”Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.”

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