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Forums - General - I'm tired of this overemphasis on diversity spilling into our entertainment.

A huge problem with "diverse" characters is that they are created so "marginalized" people can feel better about themselves, seeing someone that looks like them being heroes. That means that these characters need to be perfect which is why they end up bad characters.



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the-pi-guy said:
1. How do you know they are less talented? I'm not seeing this big fall in quality due to more females in the process. But there are plenty of women who get passed over despite being just as good as their male counterpart.

2. This point doesn't really make any sense. Why is being a woman being done for inclusion, while being a man isn't? If the gender doesnt matter, why does it matter if the main characters are female?

Even including stuff like homosexuality. What does it matter? It's a characteristization, in which case it doesn't matter.
Or it's part of the story, in which case that's their right to change their story however they see fit.

3. Yep. Everyone is in favor of that.

At the end of the day, movies, games, etc are made by companies that want to maximize how much they are making. If that means that if enough people want to see a change over not seeing that change, they are going to make that change (or not) to make their bottom line better.

People are going to be picked up if they have the skills, that's how the free market works. Also you don't have activists or groups of people calling for men to be more represented in entertainment.

Its fairly obvious that a large amount of the recent change is based on identity politics and is not driven by profits. Just look at how Star Wars is doing at the box office. 



bugrimmar said:

This is a rant. Sorry.

 

I love diversity. I love equality. I love representation.

I think it's great that the world is recognizing the need for women to receive equal treatment at work. I completely agree that homosexual couples should be able to get married. I am extremely against racism in all forms and I believe every person is equal. It doesn't matter where you're from or what religion you are.

 

BUT STOP INFECTING OUR ENTERTAINMENT WITH YOUR SELF ENTITLEMENT.

 

1. TALENT is what matters. Not your race or your sexual orientation. So if you aren't as talented as a male developer or director, you still should get the opportunity just because you're female? If you want to get a spot, IMPROVE. Let your work speak for itself and don't use your being female or Hispanic as a reason for your lack of success. It's garbage that less talented individuals are given work just for the sake of diversity. Diversity is good! But not if you're hiring someone just to prove your workplace is diverse and not because of talent!

 

2. STOP BENDING STORYLINES FOR THE SAKE OF INCLUSION. If your story calls for a homosexual character wherein his/her homosexuality has something to do with the story, then go for it. I would love to experience new storylines that explore these real world issues. But if you're just making a character a female just for the sake of showing inclusion and diversity and her feminine nature has nothing to do with the story, it's just stupid! Why make an all female Ghostbusters cast with a stupid ass male supporting character? Does their being female have anything to do with the story? Or did you just want to show people how "gender friendly" you are? The end result is the story becomes stupid! Did you cast black homosexual Achilles because it adds to the story? Does it? Or does it simply seek to rewrite an age old story unnecessarily just for your diversity dreams?

 

3. STOP USING STEREOTYPES. Not all Asians are math geniuses and not all African American characters are jacked up gangstas. Characters in games are just placed there as token pieces to fulfill a checklist. "Have we included the obligatory blonde skinny sex symbol? Check. What about the muscle bound black guy who swears every f@$#ing sentence? Check. What about the dumb Hispanic guy who talks like a meth addict? Check." It's like these people are just casting characters to fulfill obligations. Why do we have angelababy in Independence day? Not for her acting, but because she's a hot Asian chick who can appeal to viewers in China! Yeah! Cast her so we can show our movie has mass appeal!

 

End of rant.

1. I don't know how it is in the US but in Germany we have the so called "women or gender quote" for big companies since 2016. this quote says that at least 30% of the management have to be female and at least 30% male. This can obviously leed to a situation where a female candidate is chosen over a male candidate although the male is more skilled.


Now you can say that's unfair or you can ask yourself why already 70% of that company's management is filled with man, and not only that, this law would not exist if only a handful of companies had significantly more male than female manager,  only 21% of all managers were female before 2016 which means in reality it was four times more likely to become a manager for men than for women, now it's only 2 1/3 times more likely, which is much better.


Let's talk about "TALENT". I believe that something like talent exists, somebody is better at something than the average at a basic level, but when you talk about skills, talent plays a very small role compared to education, which is heavily influenced by social position.
It is no coincidence that it is much more likely to study at a university if the parents have also studied at a university.


Black and Hispanic people have a lower social status than the average white person, same was true for women. In Germany until 1977 every women needed a permission from her husband if she wanted to work, that's only 41 years. Most managers are much older than 41, so it's no surprise that so few women are among them. Once such inequalities are established, it takes a lot of time and energy to solve them. Quotas can help to solve inequality.

Last edited by MrWayne - on 21 May 2018

VGPolyglot said:
What's wrong with making someone gay or female for the sake of being that? That's a way to create depth for a character, and even if it doesn't add much to the story it helps bring a sense of liveliness to the world to give mundane details. Also, it seems that in your mind someone being straight or white or male or whatever is the default, so if someone decides to do forego that they're going to automatically get extra scrutiny and will either pass or fail the seemingly arbitrary test of whether or not this diversity is acceptable.

Let's sprinkle LGBTQ characters in movies like salt and pepper what a wonderful idea!

The problem is that identity politics is creating quotas and forced representation, and this doesn't just exist in entertainment but its going into politics and into the work place. 

 



MrWayne said:
bugrimmar said:

This is a rant. Sorry.

 

I love diversity. I love equality. I love representation.

I think it's great that the world is recognizing the need for women to receive equal treatment at work. I completely agree that homosexual couples should be able to get married. I am extremely against racism in all forms and I believe every person is equal. It doesn't matter where you're from or what religion you are.

 

BUT STOP INFECTING OUR ENTERTAINMENT WITH YOUR SELF ENTITLEMENT.

 

1. TALENT is what matters. Not your race or your sexual orientation. So if you aren't as talented as a male developer or director, you still should get the opportunity just because you're female? If you want to get a spot, IMPROVE. Let your work speak for itself and don't use your being female or Hispanic as a reason for your lack of success. It's garbage that less talented individuals are given work just for the sake of diversity. Diversity is good! But not if you're hiring someone just to prove your workplace is diverse and not because of talent!

 

2. STOP BENDING STORYLINES FOR THE SAKE OF INCLUSION. If your story calls for a homosexual character wherein his/her homosexuality has something to do with the story, then go for it. I would love to experience new storylines that explore these real world issues. But if you're just making a character a female just for the sake of showing inclusion and diversity and her feminine nature has nothing to do with the story, it's just stupid! Why make an all female Ghostbusters cast with a stupid ass male supporting character? Does their being female have anything to do with the story? Or did you just want to show people how "gender friendly" you are? The end result is the story becomes stupid! Did you cast black homosexual Achilles because it adds to the story? Does it? Or does it simply seek to rewrite an age old story unnecessarily just for your diversity dreams?

 

3. STOP USING STEREOTYPES. Not all Asians are math geniuses and not all African American characters are jacked up gangstas. Characters in games are just placed there as token pieces to fulfill a checklist. "Have we included the obligatory blonde skinny sex symbol? Check. What about the muscle bound black guy who swears every f@$#ing sentence? Check. What about the dumb Hispanic guy who talks like a meth addict? Check." It's like these people are just casting characters to fulfill obligations. Why do we have angelababy in Independence day? Not for her acting, but because she's a hot Asian chick who can appeal to viewers in China! Yeah! Cast her so we can show our movie has mass appeal!

 

End of rant.

1. I don't know how it is in the US but in Germany we have the so called "women or gender quote" for big companies since 2016. this quote says that at least 30% of the management have to be female and at least 30% male. This can obviously leed to a situation where a female candidate is chosen over a male candidate although the male is more skilled.
Now you can say that's unfair or you can ask yourself why already 70% of that company's management is filled with man, and not only that, this law would not exist if only a handful of companies had significantly more male than female manager, in reality only 21% of all managers were female before 2016 which means it was four times more likely to become a manager for men than for women, now it's only 2 1/3 times more likely, which is much better.
Let's talk about "TALENT". I believe that something like talent exists, somebody is better at something than the average at a basic level, but when you talk about skills, talent plays a very small role compared to education, which is heavily influenced by social position.
It is no coincidence that it is much more likely to study at a university if the parents have also studied at a university.
Black and Hispanic people have a lower social status than the average white person, same goes for women. In Germany until 1977 every women needed a permission from her husband if she wanted to work, that's only 41 years. Most managers are much older than 41, so it's no surprise that so few women are among them. Once such inequalities are established, it takes a lot of time and energy to solve them. Quotas can help to solve inequality.

Hiring someone that is less qualified isn't a good policy and government demanding that from companies are making invasions on free market where they should be kept out.

But you essentially answered another person that defied anyone to prove that it was a thing to hire a less qualified female just to hit a quota.



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100% agreed.
New trilogy of Star Wars is a clear example of this to me.



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Jaicee said:

Okay. Lets go through this:

YOUR QUALIFYING STATEMENT: Why offer one? When people offer qualifying statements like, for example, "I'm not a sexist, but..." it's a guaranteed fact that the next phrase will be a sexist one. Why posture as though you care about anyone but yourself when clearly you don't?

Great job mate, judging the guy when you don't know him. You're proving his point.

Now on to your "points".

1. TALENT. I find it remarkable that all women are talentless in your mind by virtue of being female. But I'm not surprised that that's how you view the world.

Where did he say that? Unless you're living under a rock, which you aren't it is apparent that quotas and specific representations are being seeked. Instead of having the market decide what it wants via profit, the dynamics are being changed for false diversity.

2. "BENDING STORYLINES". I wonder if it has ever occurred to you that female human beings, including those of us who are gay, consume media too and sometimes like to actually see stories that we can directly relate too on various levels as well rather than always being expected to view the world through your eyes?

Has it occurred to you that changing a character for the sake of it, is racist, sexist and whatever buzzword sjws use. If you're looking at a character and all you can see is "white", "straight", "male", and you change it for the the purpose of diversity then you're a backwards hypocrite. 

I have some unhappy news for you: YOU, as a straight, presumably white, male belong to the most overrepresented demographic in all artistic mediums. Just to casually throw out a couple of factoids that come to mind off the top of my head, two out of every three Hollywood actors are male and you most likely can't even name one female movie director (and if you can, it's Patty Jenkins because of last year's Wonder Woman movie, which you were probably against the production of too). Similarly, in video games...well frankly, just try thinking of a single game you've ever heard of before that was created by a team consisting either mostly or entirely of women. It's not very easy, is it? And what percentage would you say use female-only leads, because I've been gaming for more than 30 years now and I'd say it's consistently been less than 10% of the total that whole time. I could go on down the list of mediums this way -- TV, music, literature, etc. etc. -- but the point is the same: women, and especially those who are gay and/or not white , are dramatically underrepresented and usually presented as stereotypes in as far as they represented at all. You will say that this overrepresentation of men who are white and straight just reflects consumption habits. I will ask you which came first: the proverbial chicken or the egg. You just don't want those traditional consumption patterns to be made at risk of changing is all.

Again great job assuming things about the man, how very mature of you. Also what is wrong with over representation? If these people deserve their jobs, then great. When it comes to video games i shouldn't have to tell you that they simply cater to the audience, and that if you look at games being exposed at E3 close to 50 % of them will have a playable female character. 

If you care so much about representation why don't you ask for more males in nursing, for more females in prisons? In mines?  in construction sites? I'm sorry to burst your bubble , at large what creates the levels of representation we have today, is talent, personal choice, and the demands of the market. 

I point all this out to highlight how selfish and entitled you're being. You use expressions like "diversity" and "bending storylines" to describe representation for anyone belonging to any group but your own. You seem to believe that you are the default sex/race/orientation and that the rest of us are unnatural aberrations undeserving of having our stories told or our fantasies legitimized at all.

Again i have to applaud you for your maturity.

I mean how many games can you actually think of that include gay romance arcs, for example, because very few are coming to my mind. There weren't any that I can even recall around when I was in my teen years, discovering that I was lesbian. Did you know that that level of cultural annihilation can be hurtful and cause one to feel very, very lonely and freakish? But methinks that actually maybe that's how you hope that people like me feel because you don't even think of us as fully human.

If you need to be represented in games and entertainment to feel good about yourself then i'm sorry but you lack a proper education or the presence of a proper support group in your life. 

Why aren't you bothered by the far larger number of movies/games/shows/whatever that use all-male casts of lead characters? Why just when it's girls or women?

So you found the way that men are represented in the latest Ghostbusters movie insulting? Congratulations: now you understand how I felt about the way women were represented in the originals! In other words, get over it.

3. STEREOTYPES. I agree with this sentiment technically, but, given the rest of your commentary on the evils of "diversity", can't help but feel that there is a selfish ulterior motive in the back of you mind.

You have no clue what diversity is, diversity is having different opinions, different ideas, different ways of thinking. Not different skin colours, genders, or sexualities. Simply looking at people and classifying them based on gender, race, sexuality is the complete opposite of diversity. 

I'm not saying that the world is perfect as it is, and that we don't have some forced representations, but the way of changing that isn't by shoving quotas down the throats of people.

In bold. 



Im somewhere in the middle I guess. I'm for more female leads, because, obviously, females are 50% of the population, so it would make sense for them to be around 50% of the leads. I do feel like there's over-representation of non gender norms, though - there seems to be way more than the 3% or so that the general population matches.

It's a fine line, it's obvious and over the top in some movies (The Last Jedi), and well done and unnoticeable in others (Rogue One). I read one of the books leading up to The Last Jedi about Princess Leia - pretty good book - but there was a random character brought up 2/3s through the book, immediately noted he was gay, got teased for it, and then wasn't in the book again. It was the most obvious shoehorn I'd ever read. Literally 1 or 2 pages on him in the entire book, all about him being gay. I feel pretty sure that it was mandated.

It's obvious that in the past that straight white males were over represented, that there's a market now for some diversity (Black Panther), and generally its good to have characters that people who identify with can look up to. It's also terribly story breaking when it's obvious and poorly done, and by doing it too much causes more issues than it fixes.



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DonFerrari said:
MrWayne said:

1. I don't know how it is in the US but in Germany we have the so called "women or gender quote" for big companies since 2016. this quote says that at least 30% of the management have to be female and at least 30% male. This can obviously leed to a situation where a female candidate is chosen over a male candidate although the male is more skilled.
Now you can say that's unfair or you can ask yourself why already 70% of that company's management is filled with man, and not only that, this law would not exist if only a handful of companies had significantly more male than female manager, in reality only 21% of all managers were female before 2016 which means it was four times more likely to become a manager for men than for women, now it's only 2 1/3 times more likely, which is much better.
Let's talk about "TALENT". I believe that something like talent exists, somebody is better at something than the average at a basic level, but when you talk about skills, talent plays a very small role compared to education, which is heavily influenced by social position.
It is no coincidence that it is much more likely to study at a university if the parents have also studied at a university.
Black and Hispanic people have a lower social status than the average white person, same goes for women. In Germany until 1977 every women needed a permission from her husband if she wanted to work, that's only 41 years. Most managers are much older than 41, so it's no surprise that so few women are among them. Once such inequalities are established, it takes a lot of time and energy to solve them. Quotas can help to solve inequality.

Hiring someone that is less qualified isn't a good policy and government demanding that from companies are making invasions on free market where they should be kept out.

But you essentially answered another person that defied anyone to prove that it was a thing to hire a less qualified female just to hit a quota.

how can you let qualification determine everything, if not everyone have the same chance to get that qualification?
The managers of the largest companies have a huge impact on our society and politics. So it is fair to have a balanced representation there.

This quota could have a negative impact in the short term, but in the long term, companies will ensure that their female employees are given equivalent education to their male colleagues.

Last edited by MrWayne - on 21 May 2018

epicurean said:
Im somewhere in the middle I guess. I'm for more female leads, because, obviously, females are 50% of the population, so it would make sense for them to be around 50% of the leads. I do feel like there's over-representation of non gender norms, though - there seems to be way more than the 3% or so that the general population matches.

It's a fine line, it's obvious and over the top in some movies (The Last Jedi), and well done and unnoticeable in others (Rogue One). I read one of the books leading up to The Last Jedi about Princess Leia - pretty good book - but there was a random character brought up 2/3s through the book, immediately noted he was gay, got teased for it, and then wasn't in the book again. It was the most obvious shoehorn I'd ever read. Literally 1 or 2 pages on him in the entire book, all about him being gay. I feel pretty sure that it was mandated.

It's obvious that in the past that straight white males were over represented, that there's a market now for some diversity (Black Panther), and generally its good to have characters that people who identify with can look up to. It's also terribly story breaking when it's obvious and poorly done, and by doing it too much causes more issues than it fixes.

Anyone complained about lack of white people on Black Panther?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."