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Forums - Gaming - Gaming as fictitious as Religion?

robzo100 said:
JWeinCom said:

I'm not sure where you're from, but the fire and brimstone form of Christianity is still alive and well, and Islam is still growing.  

There is no supernatural aspect to gaming, no consequences for gaming or not gaming, no gaming missionaries, no wars being fought in the name of gaming, nobody turning to their local 50th level palladin for guidance in life, nobody claiming gaming could provide the answers to all of life's mysteries, nobody suggesting that we teach our students that animals evolve when they get enough experience in battle instead of through natural selection,  nobody going to spread the gospel according to Kratos in Uganda, nobody saying that you shouldn't use condoms to prevent aids because it would offend Palkia, nobody claiming that a candidate is unqualified for office if they don't play games, or if they play on the wrong console, nobody praying to Hylia for guidance, no organizations that will kick you out for not playing games, nobody trying to tell you who you can or can't marry based on the tome of eternal darkness, nobody claiming that we needn't worry about global warming because the Earth is just going to be invaded by reapers anyway, nobody claiming that natural disasters occur because we've offended Viridi, nobody who wants to deny access to healthcare because of the Doom Marine, etc.   

Unless you take an INCREDIBLY broad definition of religion (like anything people do that they really like), then there is really no way they are remotely the same.  And if you take such a broad definition, then basically anything becomes a religion, to the point where the word loses all meaning.

Fair enough, plenty of examples to boot. Yeah, it's probably not there yet, not as wide-reaching, not as consequential or impactful, not nearly as elaborate. Nevertheless, and I'm not trying to "win" any argument persay, religion is slowly evaporating imo and gaming is growing as an arm or leg of a more secular holistic form of entertainment by which people express themselves very fanatically and impactfully (The music, the fashion, the geekdom, the fan art, the forums, the annual GDCs, E3s, Comic-Cons, etc.). 

Perhaps religion, encompassing many different branches(upon further branches - Christianity-Catholicism), would not be equal to gaming as gaming would be, as I just put it, an arm or leg (a branch) of something more fundamental. Not sure if that is sports as a whole, or entertainment as a whole. But that "whole" is what I'm referencing when I talked earlier about a sort of account system by which one automatically takes part in as a requisite to participating in a general entertainment community, one that would be virtual a la Miitomo with expressive avatars and the like reflective of their entertainment preferences.

But yeah, it's probably not there yet. However, this is what I see in the future, and culture, especially those facets rooted in technology, is generally exponential.

I'm just really not sure what you're defining as "religious".  There is a human tendency towards seeking meaning, seeking meaning where it may or may not belong, looking for authority, looking for group acceptance, and things like that.  If that's what you mean by religion, then sure.  But as I see it, religion as we typically discuss it involves dogma and some kind of supernatural authority.  In this sense, gaming will never get close.



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JWeinCom said:
robzo100 said:

Fair enough, plenty of examples to boot. Yeah, it's probably not there yet, not as wide-reaching, not as consequential or impactful, not nearly as elaborate. Nevertheless, and I'm not trying to "win" any argument persay, religion is slowly evaporating imo and gaming is growing as an arm or leg of a more secular holistic form of entertainment by which people express themselves very fanatically and impactfully (The music, the fashion, the geekdom, the fan art, the forums, the annual GDCs, E3s, Comic-Cons, etc.). 

Perhaps religion, encompassing many different branches(upon further branches - Christianity-Catholicism), would not be equal to gaming as gaming would be, as I just put it, an arm or leg (a branch) of something more fundamental. Not sure if that is sports as a whole, or entertainment as a whole. But that "whole" is what I'm referencing when I talked earlier about a sort of account system by which one automatically takes part in as a requisite to participating in a general entertainment community, one that would be virtual a la Miitomo with expressive avatars and the like reflective of their entertainment preferences.

But yeah, it's probably not there yet. However, this is what I see in the future, and culture, especially those facets rooted in technology, is generally exponential.

I'm just really not sure what you're defining as "religious".  There is a human tendency towards seeking meaning, seeking meaning where it may or may not belong, looking for authority, looking for group acceptance, and things like that.  If that's what you mean by religion, then sure.  But as I see it, religion as we typically discuss it involves dogma and some kind of supernatural authority.  In this sense, gaming will never get close.

Hmmm...I see the point more clearly now. The general notion of religion and the specific one relating to "supernatural authority." I'd have to concede that gaming, whether Mario or Master Chief, will never reach that kind of status and legitimacy. But it did immediately beg the question in my head as to what would be the posterboy for religion. Catholicism? Hinduism? Buddhism? Shintoism?

Well, Western Religion like Catholicism, Judiasm, definitely have that supernatural authority heirarchy that is integral to the practice and overall DNA. But the further you head east, the further it breaks down. Hinduism seems like a good middle ground as its polytheistic roots dilute the presence of an onipotent monotheistic ruler. And then Daoism, Buddhism, and Shintoism, begin to melt into "lifestyle" as many Japanese don't even know many facts at all about their native religion; there just aren't nearly as many facts and specific to the religion as there is with Christianity for example.

I'm just thinking off the bat as I go with this discussion. If I didn't and just held a static position right from the get-go then your just criticisms would not have led me down this path. I guess my only caveat at this point is that you're right with regards to Western Religion. I was arguing that western religion was becoming more lax and dilute, but perhaps other religions are already that way by nature.

There are Shinto shrines all over Japan. But how will they compare an actual physical Nintendo Land(Universal Studios)? Surely there will be erect statues of Gaming legends...and maybe "invisible" pokemon too. :)



robzo100 said:
JWeinCom said:

I'm just really not sure what you're defining as "religious".  There is a human tendency towards seeking meaning, seeking meaning where it may or may not belong, looking for authority, looking for group acceptance, and things like that.  If that's what you mean by religion, then sure.  But as I see it, religion as we typically discuss it involves dogma and some kind of supernatural authority.  In this sense, gaming will never get close.

Hmmm...I see the point more clearly now. The general notion of religion and the specific one relating to "supernatural authority." I'd have to concede that gaming, whether Mario or Master Chief, will never reach that kind of status and legitimacy. But it did immediately beg the question in my head as to what would be the posterboy for religion. Catholicism? Hinduism? Buddhism? Shintoism?

Well, Western Religion like Catholicism, Judiasm, definitely have that supernatural authority heirarchy that is integral to the practice and overall DNA. But the further you head east, the further it breaks down. Hinduism seems like a good middle ground as its polytheistic roots dilute the presence of an onipotent monotheistic ruler. And then Daoism, Buddhism, and Shintoism, begin to melt into "lifestyle" as many Japanese don't even know many facts at all about their native religion; there just aren't nearly as many facts and specific to the religion as there is with Christianity for example.

I'm just thinking off the bat as I go with this discussion. If I didn't and just held a static position right from the get-go then your just criticisms would not have led me down this path. I guess my only caveat at this point is that you're right with regards to Western Religion. I was arguing that western religion was becoming more lax and dilute, but perhaps other religions are already that way by nature.

There are Shinto shrines all over Japan. But how will they compare an actual physical Nintendo Land(Universal Studios)? Surely there will be erect statues of Gaming legends...and maybe "invisible" pokemon too. :)

The only eastern religion I'm even vaguely familiar with is Buddhism which is a grey area.  Some sects do have supernatural beliefs, and some do not.  Overall, it seems you're speaking more of idolatry than religion. 



Religion is not fictitious, it is a real phenomenon, meaning, religions exist, people live and die by their religions. The religious temple exists, they are not fictitious.
Granted, unbeliever can claim this or that god does not exist, they can even claim the supernatural does not exist, but they can never claim religion does not exist.
Religion is a social phenomena, it is impossible to deny its existence.
Now, games never claim to be based on truth, Religion always does.
So, it is the old Harry Potter vs. Bible debate: atheists say that the bible is as holy as JK Rowling work. But JK never claim her work to be truth or chronicles of a real history.
In the case of my faith, christianity, the base is, of course, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel.
The base text is the Torah, which claims to be a historical chronicles compendium of the nation of Israel, big difference.
And, of course, our God is the Lord Jesus Christ, and our faith is based in the belieth that Jesus became human to save us from the curse described in the 39 books of the Old Testament.
Sure, you can NOT believe in any of that, but it is not fair to simplify. The curse is described in 1500 pages of the 39 books, and, of course, you can call BS after reading, but to simplify it is not wise.
What do I mean? I mean it deserves respect as any other religion does, but personally, to me, is not only words in a book, it is the very power of the almighty God.
Believe or not believe is, in the end, a choice. I know many people that hate God because they think He cramps their style, spoil their fun.
I accept that, it is a decent reason for rejecting God, as good as any.
But, for some reason, these same people want to attack the very people that, in other hand, find happyness in God, not a hindering cage.
It is our fault, as christians, for the most part. Being a christian is not easy because there is so much to know when it comes to the Bible, and how to walk in the Lord.
Sometimes we answer in anger instead of love, we judge instead of having mercy.
I also have being banned many times from Vgchartz just because I was answering questions people asked me. That tells me that I failed in answering with a humble heart.
The whole thing is reall intricate, and it must be, as it is the very meaning of life and the ultimate secret of the Universe.
It is the most important decision we do, to believe or not. And I know it takes a lot of courage to decide either way.
You guys know where I stand, but I respect the decision each of you made in this matter. I know it was not a easy one. Mine took almost 15 years to consolidate. It is something most of us ponder through all of our lives, one way or another.



My grammar errors are justified by the fact that I am a brazilian living in Brazil. I am also very stupid.

JWeinCom said: 

Overall, it seems you're speaking more of idolatry than religion. 

Perhaps yes. But my point is that Eastern Religion by nature resembles idolatry more than Western Religion.  Western Religion, like most western philosophy in general, has more structure, heirarchy, and rules. Eastern is more holistic and fluid. Shintoism is largely based on the worship of "kami." Kami is the life-force that animates everything from rocks, to humans, cats, leaves, dirt, clouds, etc. And Hinduism like I said has many gods thereby diminishing any central heirarchy of worship.

Disclaimer for myelf as well, not an expert in Eastern Religions specifically, but as a general concept I understand the differences in philosophy. Shintoism more so as I lived in Japan for a while.



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WagnerPaiva said:

- Religion is not fictitious, it is a real phenomenon, meaning, religions exist, people live and die by their religions.
- Now, games never claim to be based on truth, Religion always does.
So, it is the old Harry Potter vs. Bible debate: atheists say that the bible is as holy as JK Rowling work. But JK never claim her work to be truth or chronicles of a real history.

Just wanted to highlight the main points that resonated with me. Yeah, I like the way you view religion; can it really be thought of entirely as fiction when it's effects and impact is anything but. Which leads to the main distinction you posit; One claims to be objective and the other subjective.

hmmm...well, the person who initially wrote the bible may have very well mever intended it to be viewed as objective; perhaps besides the point but still food for thought. But again, the direction of religion is such that it's followers, more and more, one by one, are becoming more lax to the point where they pronounce their relativism more loudly in society. So muhc mroe young people (albeit I am speaking for America, from NY here) have this sort of "whatever floats your boat" attitude. They have their beliefs but recognize that beliefs are "wishy-washy."

As for Harry Potter fans not becoming as zealous as religious fanatics, I wouldn't disagree. But if you could reference some of my earlier posts relating to the community-side of gaming and where it's heading in the future as part of a general entertainment account system/virtual community, perhaps you could see how it may begin to mimic religion eventually.



robzo100 said:

Just wanted to highlight the main points that resonated with me. Yeah, I like the way you view religion; can it really be thought of entirely as fiction when it's effects and impact is anything but. Which leads to the main distinction you posit; One claims to be objective and the other subjective.

hmmm...well, the person who initially wrote the bible may have very well mever intended it to be viewed as objective; perhaps besides the point but still food for thought. But again, the direction of religion is such that it's followers, more and more, one by one, are becoming more lax to the point where they pronounce their relativism more loudly in society. So muhc mroe young people (albeit I am speaking for America, from NY here) have this sort of "whatever floats your boat" attitude. They have their beliefs but recognize that beliefs are "wishy-washy."

As for Harry Potter fans not becoming as zealous as religious fanatics, I wouldn't disagree. But if you could reference some of my earlier posts relating to the community-side of gaming and where it's heading in the future as part of a general entertainment account system/virtual community, perhaps you could see how it may begin to mimic religion eventually.

I will not pretend that I can answer anything as intelligent as you just wrote, I will just say that you impressed me, not little.

I do think that even being a atheist or a "wish-washy believer in something" is not a light decision to make, even if the person pretends it is easy. We are not insane, part of our brains understand that eternity is on the line either way we choose.

I guess caring too much about entertainment can be a side-effect of not believing in a more transcedental meaning for life. so, by all accounts, color me impressed with your comment.



My grammar errors are justified by the fact that I am a brazilian living in Brazil. I am also very stupid.

robzo100 said:

JWeinCom said: 

Overall, it seems you're speaking more of idolatry than religion. 

Perhaps yes. But my point is that Eastern Religion by nature resembles idolatry more than Western Religion.  Western Religion, like most western philosophy in general, has more structure, heirarchy, and rules. Eastern is more holistic and fluid. Shintoism is largely based on the worship of "kami." Kami is the life-force that animates everything from rocks, to humans, cats, leaves, dirt, clouds, etc. And Hinduism like I said has many gods thereby diminishing any central heirarchy of worship.

Disclaimer for myelf as well, not an expert in Eastern Religions specifically, but as a general concept I understand the differences in philosophy. Shintoism more so as I lived in Japan for a while.

Life force seems somewhat analogous to soul, which I would consider supernatural.  Hinduism is definitely suernaturally.  There is a heirarchy within the system of gods itself, and there is also a belief in an afterlife (or another life I guess).  

WagnerPaiva said:
robzo100 said:

Just wanted to highlight the main points that resonated with me. Yeah, I like the way you view religion; can it really be thought of entirely as fiction when it's effects and impact is anything but. Which leads to the main distinction you posit; One claims to be objective and the other subjective.

hmmm...well, the person who initially wrote the bible may have very well mever intended it to be viewed as objective; perhaps besides the point but still food for thought. But again, the direction of religion is such that it's followers, more and more, one by one, are becoming more lax to the point where they pronounce their relativism more loudly in society. So muhc mroe young people (albeit I am speaking for America, from NY here) have this sort of "whatever floats your boat" attitude. They have their beliefs but recognize that beliefs are "wishy-washy."

As for Harry Potter fans not becoming as zealous as religious fanatics, I wouldn't disagree. But if you could reference some of my earlier posts relating to the community-side of gaming and where it's heading in the future as part of a general entertainment account system/virtual community, perhaps you could see how it may begin to mimic religion eventually.

I will not pretend that I can answer anything as intelligent as you just wrote, I will just say that you impressed me, not little.

I do think that even being a atheist or a "wish-washy believer in something" is not a light decision to make, even if the person pretends it is easy. We are not insane, part of our brains understand that eternity is on the line either way we choose.

I guess caring too much about entertainment can be a side-effect of not believing in a more transcedental meaning for life. so, by all accounts, color me impressed with your comment.

Being an atheist is not a decision.  I didn't decide one day I wanted to be an atheist.  I evaluated the claims made by religion (in my case judaism mainly because that's what I was sort of raised in) and it just didn't make sense to me.  

If you are a christian, then think of your own belief.  I'm assuming that, in your mind, you "know" that christianity is true, right?  So, if you really wanted to, could you choose to not believe it?  You may be able to choose not to follow the religion, but could you choose to legitimately not believe in the existence of god or jesus?  I'm guessing that you can't choose to believe that.  The reverse is true for me.  I can't choose to believe in something I "know" is wrong.

Eternity is not on the line, because there is no reason to believe in such a thing.  If you think there is, then that's fine for you, but my brain certainly does not "understand" this.  The suggestion that not believing in eternity makes a person insane is kind of offensive.



JWeinCom said:


Eternity is not on the line, because there is no reason to believe in such a thing.  If you think there is, then that's fine for you, but my brain certainly does not "understand" this.  The suggestion that not believing in eternity makes a person insane is kind of offensive.

These are the consequences of deciding atheism is true, if atheism is true, there is no eternity. Your decision is of course the most rational one for you, there is no doubt about that. If it was different, you would be not a atheist.

Of course you are atheist because you think the other options are not plausible, it is like this in all matters of life.



My grammar errors are justified by the fact that I am a brazilian living in Brazil. I am also very stupid.

WagnerPaiva said:
JWeinCom said:


Eternity is not on the line, because there is no reason to believe in such a thing.  If you think there is, then that's fine for you, but my brain certainly does not "understand" this.  The suggestion that not believing in eternity makes a person insane is kind of offensive.

These are the consequences of deciding atheism is true, if atheism is true, there is no eternity. Your decision is of course the most rational one for you, there is no doubt about that. If it was different, you would be not a atheist.

Of course you are atheist because you think the other options are not plausible, it is like this in all matters of life.

Eternal life exists or doesn't exist.  My opinion doesn't have any impact on that.