wow, good read.

ookaze said: WoW and the Sims at least should have taught him that.

Well... I was a good teacher, but he was a bad student.  Sorry 'bout that. 

It's either just me or everyone has missed the point. He doesnt say console gaming will die. He is saying if there is another generation it needs to change. And I agree.

shio said: So if it's porting to PC it's shovelware, but if it's the other way around it's proven casual games?! Jeeesus. So far the only games I've noticed getting ported to Wii from PC were second-rated Adventure games (not that I'm against it).

I'm still wondering how you managed to mix the cause and the outcome, you're amazing really.

Besides,  I already told you strawmen don't work on me, so please stop.

Unless you believe multiplatform means shovelware of course, in which case your problem is bigger than I thought.

 

There are several proven PC games that are coming to WiiWare, so it seems to me you have very selective research skills, which is indicative of the fact that the truth is not what you're searching for. But make no mistake, I never was a fool to believe you were trying to understand if the guy was right or not.

selnor said: It's either just me or everyone has missed the point. He doesnt say console gaming will die. He is saying if there is another generation it needs to change. And I agree.

I disagree with him.

Now why do you agree with him? This I don't understand. What's the problem exactly?

Strangely enough, I thought the PC gaming market was the one shrinking compared to the console gaming market.

Plaupius said: Other than the console itself, those seem pretty standard retail margins, and if you turn them into absolute profit it is clear that the (roughly) ten bucks per sold game is where the retailers make their profits. Touch that and you're on thin ice. That's the point the guy was trying to make, but he conviniently left out any mention of PC retail markups, which I don't think are much better than concoles. So what you're left with is a change in the retail structure of both console and PC gaming.

Yeah, the question is though, could the Walmart or retailer replace the showspace with something that could make as much money?  If it was as simple as just sell items with high margin, then we'd see football fields of retail stores lining the world.  Retailers need to have items they don't make as much on.  Case in point, I don't usually mind, in fact I usually enjoy, going to a store and looking through their game deals/selections.  However, if the store takes that away, I won't go as much.  Which means I won't buy as much non gaming related items from the store.  Look at the huge discounts surrounding Thanksgiving and December, which are largely designed to get people into their store, and then tell me that retail stores are itching to get away from games.  Also, look at the NPD articles about record sales in the gaming industry and tell me nobody wants those $.  If they can sell something of higher value they will, but most of the time the two are not mutually exclusive.

ookaze said: selnor said: It's either just me or everyone has missed the point. He doesnt say console gaming will die. He is saying if there is another generation it needs to change. And I agree. I disagree with him. Now why do you agree with him? This I don't understand. What's the problem exactly? Strangely enough, I thought the PC gaming market was the one shrinking compared to the console gaming market.

 It's not just what he says but also whats happening in the tech world. His statement is entirely true about Intel and AMD. When they release those chips in 2009, PC gaming will have in power terms double the potential of PS3 and 360. Also in 2010 they are looking to release HD movies on kiosks in shops which you download to a flash or SD card(Or whatever the one Toshiba is working on.) Now most people have proven that they dont mind not having a disc with music(as downloads outsells shop cd's now). This will be the same for films. I also believe Toshiba is working on TV's where you put those cards strait in and watch the HD download without the need for external player. I certainly thinkthis is why MS hasnt botherd with a BLU RAY player and am certain that nex gen games with microsoft wont be on disc. To much is changing. Downloads are cheaper to produce and cheaper forthe consumer. And with not needing to have the internet at home makes this an easier shift than a new medium. I said all along I wouldnt get HDDVD or BLU RAY because there were changes close.

 

cleveland124 said: Plaupius said: Other than the console itself, those seem pretty standard retail margins, and if you turn them into absolute profit it is clear that the (roughly) ten bucks per sold game is where the retailers make their profits. Touch that and you're on thin ice. That's the point the guy was trying to make, but he conviniently left out any mention of PC retail markups, which I don't think are much better than concoles. So what you're left with is a change in the retail structure of both console and PC gaming. Yeah, the question is though, could the Walmart or retailer replace the showspace with something that could make as much money? If it was as simple as just sell items with high margin, then we'd see football fields of retail stores lining the world. Retailers need to have items they don't make as much on. Case in point, I don't usually mind, in fact I usually enjoy, going to a store and looking through their game deals/selections. However, if the store takes that away, I won't go as much. Which means I won't buy as much non gaming related items from the store. Look at the huge discounts surrounding Thanksgiving and December, which are largely designed to get people into their store, and then tell me that retail stores are itching to get away from games. Also, look at the NPD articles about record sales in the gaming industry and tell me nobody wants those $. If they can sell something of higher value they will, but most of the time the two are not mutually exclusive.

Well, the starting point of the discussion is that if/when digital distribution takes over, retail stores lose big time because that is exactly the part of gaming related markets they want. Selling consoles is bad business for them, accessories on the other hand are very good business, but much more limited than games. But they sell both to boost game sales. Take away the game sales, and what are you left with? You say it yourself: you go to the store to see their game deals, and if they don't have that, you won't go. So the retailers really don't want to lose the game sales, but digital distribution is going to at least shrink the sales of shrink wrapped games. Small speciality stores are a different matter, but big retail chains have all the bargaining power when it comes to what products they sell, and if they see that console + accessories are not as profitable as something else, they won't hesitate changing. Of course, that's somewhat of an oversimplification, as the retailers obviously care about the causality of sales, so it might be that having consoles helps them sell other, more profitable products, in which case they won't be so hasty to drop consoles.

Plaupius said:Of course, that's somewhat of an oversimplification, as the retailers obviously care about the causality of sales, so it might be that having consoles helps them sell other, more profitable products, in which case they won't be so hasty to drop consoles.

That was what I was trying to get at.  I buy 90% of my things online.  If it wasn't for games, I'd probably buy no pleasure purchases at the store as my wife does the grocery shopping and I only buy clothes when I absolutely need them. 

However, here is my question, that I pretty much asked in another thread.  Let's assume away all problems of digital distribution.  Assume bandwidth is unlimited, assume people don't care if they don't actually own a physical copy, assume Microsoft and Sony release IP machines next generation with massive hard drives.  Then let's say Nintendo basically makes a Wii HD.  You can even assume that Microsoft and Sony's machines are cheap.  The question I have is, would Nintendo's console fail?  It certainly wouldn't put up Wii 1 numbers but is it possible for it to do worse than the gamecube?  In my mind I think there will always be a console market.  And if there is one stores will have games for them.  Will they have decreasing space for them?  Probably.  But when I look at most retailers (Wal-mart included) I see tons of wasted space.  If they were really that concerned over what at most stores is a few cases 3 feet wide by 5 foot long then they need to do a complete store overhaul.

The only reason they are claiming that there is a PC gaming renaissance is because they want to garner sales for their new products.