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Forums - Gaming - The one thing the PS3 and the Dreamcast have in common!

Zero Hero on 28 March 2008
Words Of Wisdom said:
MikeB said:
Words Of Wisdom said:
MikeB said:
selnor said:
MikeB said:
PDF said:
I only see that Sony mangaed to pull out of the same track the DC was in and is now doing better

And there are more than enough anticipated PS3 games lined-up for Japan. MGS4 will help considerably in the short term. Once Final Fantasy and a slimline PS3 launches I predict Japan will go PS3 crazy.

The PS3 is a 10 year product strategy, for Japan it was a 1st round knockout against the 360, first punch knock out actually.

10 year product that is obselete in 2009. AMD and Intel release amzingly fast CPU and GPU combined processors which more than double dot productions in gaming. PS3 or 360 will not last till 2017. Both are equal in graphical capabilities. And niether will be able to run the new UE4 which is being developed for the new PC processors. Question is where does this leave ATI and NVIDIA?

 


The PS3 already has some of the technically most impressive games such as Uncharted and Ratchet & Clank: Tools of Destruction Opinion, yet such games only scratch the surface of what can be achieved through PS3 specific game engine enhancements. Opinion

Consoles are easier to use, no fuss strainght forward and more seamless in usage for many things. Half-truth It's not only about raw power, but Windows by itself drains a lot potential PC perfomance Half-truth and games are never optimised to the extend console games are being optimised for the remaining power. Lie Consoles are also about value for money Fact, currently there is even no expensive x86 Windows PC available which provides the equivalent performance potential that the PS3 Cell processor can provide Lie nor do PCs offer a Blu-Ray drive by default Fact at console price points. Lie

The PS3 will get cheaper Fact and slimmer in course of time Opinion, the games library will rapidly expand Fact and improve in quality Opinion, the Blu-Ray movie library will expand Fact, new services like Home and PlayTV will be launched Fact, this all considerably enhancing the value for money ratio for the PS3 Opinion . If you understand this then you can understand why the PS2 is still selling pretty well Lie, but the PS3 is now much better specced than the PS2 was for the time the PS2 console launched Fact, much better! Opinion


I've provided a helpful legend with which to read MikeB's post.

Also - $130 BluRay PC drive


Heh Mr Troll, to address the alledged "lies".

- Nearly everyone knows in course of time consoles are being pushed better to their limits than PCs will, the reasons are actually quite simple, PC owners have a great diversity of differently specced hardware, different CPUs (also differently clocked), different RAM speeds, different GPUs, different motherboard settings and chips, etc. Thus games aren't being optimised as well for PC hardware as sofware will be optimised during a console lifecycle. Read what I called a lie. It was not "being pushed to their limits," it was being "optimized more." You also used the word never which is a HUGE generalization. Supply proof that all console games are optimized more than PC games. Unless you can do that, I call BS on your statement  Opinion

- The Cell processor and PS3 is being bought by scientists to mimic the human brain or research blackholes. The Cell is a pretty special very powerful general purpose processor. Again read what I called a lie. The fact that you are saying that no processor is better than the gimped PS3 processor is laughable because it is surpassed by the real Cell that isn't partially handicapped due to cost limitations. Also the fact that you say the word "potential" in your statement makes it into even more of a laughing stock because until this mysterious potential is unlocked, we'll still be seeing 360 games better than or equal to their counterparts. Opinion

- A 130 dollar PC Blu-Ray drive without a PC is pretty useless. You also need a casing, motherboard, RAM, CPU, graphics card, harddrive, likely Windows, mouse, keyboard, etc and probably a monitor and speakers. It will be more expensive and will not be a real PS3 replacement at all, something you comfortably use to watch movies and play games on the couch in the living room. Read what you wrote MikeB. You asked for a PC BluRay drive at a "console price point" and I pointed out one with a price of half that of the Wii. You can't make a comment and then shift the goal posts, it doesn't work that way. Opinion, especially when it suits your agenda

- The over 8 year old PS2 outsold the XBox 360 in January and February in the 360's strongest market according to NPD tracking. I think the PS2 still performs honorable. The reason for the PS2's success, not the success itself, is unrelated to all your talk of the PS3. Opinion


 Fact. Your opinion does not = fact.


 Welcome to the world of "It works both ways." You don't care for what Mike B. has to say and I don't care for your opinion either. 



So what do you win if your prefered console sells more than another?

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Words Of Wisdom on 28 March 2008
Zero Hero said:

Welcome to the world of "It works both ways." You don't care for what Mike B. has to say and I don't care for your opinion either.


Whose alt. account are you again?

Also, please put your opinion in something other than a mile high quote and I will respond. ^_^



MikeB on 28 March 2008
rocketpig said:
The high-end PS3 is $500. For roughly $100-150 more, I can put together a gaming PC that will annihilate the PS3 in every way, shape, and form. It will perform office tasks, run Photoshop, Illustrator, browse the internet, and do almost anything I might require of it. It will also run Crysis at medium-high settings, something the PS3 could only dream of doing. I know this because right now, I'm scouting out deals to build a new rig for gaming.

And don't bring up monitor and speakers. After all, without a television, the PS3 isn't much fucking good to anyone, is it?

A TV is a device people usually own regardless, owning a monitor in the bulk of situations only makes sense when you own a PC. IMO it´s a definite cost consideration to the advantage of consoles.

There are many people who only own a PC for webbrowsing and email, these functions are technically possible to achieve well on a console like the PS3 connected to a HDTV.

The PS3 is powerful enough to run Crysis like games, I think next year you will agree with this as well. As for providing a superior experience, many may not agree with you. The fuss of checking specs, upgrading hardware, TVs/HDTVs usually being bigger than the most common 17´inch monitors, having to use Windows on the PC, playing with friends using multiple PS3 Sixaxis controllers on the couch, etc. IMO it´s not as blank and white as you claim, some may well even prefer a Wii for gaming, maybe due to Mario or the Wii-mote. For others one specific exclusive game like Final Fantasy XIII may make the PS3 gaming experience superior as well. Back to the orignal point, it´s not impossible the PS3 will be a viable platform for a decade nomatter the latest and greatest GPU or CPU available for the PC.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

rocketpig on 28 March 2008
MikeB said:
rocketpig said:
The high-end PS3 is $500. For roughly $100-150 more, I can put together a gaming PC that will annihilate the PS3 in every way, shape, and form. It will perform office tasks, run Photoshop, Illustrator, browse the internet, and do almost anything I might require of it. It will also run Crysis at medium-high settings, something the PS3 could only dream of doing. I know this because right now, I'm scouting out deals to build a new rig for gaming.

And don't bring up monitor and speakers. After all, without a television, the PS3 isn't much fucking good to anyone, is it?

A TV is a device people usually own regardless, owning a monitor in the bulk of situations only makes sense when you own a PC. IMO it´s a definite cost consideration to the advantage of consoles.

There are many people who only own a PC for webbrowsing and email, these functions are technically possible to achieve well on a console like the PS3 connected to a HDTV.

The PS3 is powerful enough to run Crysis like games, I think next year you will agree with this as well. As for providing a superior experience, many may not agree with you. The fuss of checking specs, upgrading hardware, TVs/HDTVs usually being bigger than the most common 17´inch monitors, having to use Windows on the PC, playing with friends using multiple PS3 Sixaxis controllers on the couch, etc. IMO it´s not as blank and white as you claim, some may well even prefer a Wii for gaming, maybe due to Mario or the Wii-mote. For others one specific exclusive game like Final Fantasy XIII may make the PS3 gaming experience superior as well. Back to the orignal point, it´s not impossible the PS3 will be a viable platform for a decade nomatter the latest and greatest GPU or CPU available for the PC.

Why bring preference into this? That wasn't my argument.

I can build a PC for roughly $200 more than a PS3 that will mop the floor with the console in overall capabilities and specifications, both for gaming and general purpose uses. You can't even argue that.

Yes, down the road the PS3 may be capable of running Crysis-like games. The key difference is that my theoritical PC can run Crysis itself. On medium-to-high settings, to boot.

If you want to nit-pick, you can hook a PC to any HDTV. The same HDTV you would need to take advantage of many things you use on your PS3. It's a non-issue. After all, the PS3 is pretty much useless for anything other than gaming if you're using it on an SDTV.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

Final-Fan on 28 March 2008
Words Of Wisdom said:
Final-Fan said:
Note A: (this also draws on the later exchange between MikeB and yourself)
How exactly is optimizing different from utilizing the hardware at closer to its limit? Isn't the entire purpose of optimization gettig the most use out of the hardware? Isn't that exactly what you said you were talking about instead of optimization? Tell me the difference. "Never", in this case, is also a generalization. Though there may be exceptions, the nature of console vs. PC hardware guarantees that it is true so much that "always" is a very small exaggeration indeed AFAIK. A steel rod being driven entirely through the skull and brain doesn't ALWAYS kill the victim (ask Phineas Gage), but close enough.

Note B: You incorrectly separated "PC with Blu-ray" from "at console prices". You can get a decent PC for console prices but a Blu-ray drive (even your $130 one) drives the price beyond that range.

Note C: This is correct only if you are saying that the "quality-to-crap" ratio will not improve. The NUMBER of quality games will most definitely improve, making his assertion a "Fact" for the discerning customer.
A) "Optimization" can mean many things as can "pushing toward its limits." Firefox 2 has a memory leak which can push a system's RAM usage to its limits but I would hardly classify that as optimization. I tend to interpret the former as getting more for less and the latter as the maximum of whatever you get at all points of efficiency (most of which are irrelevant I would imagine).

The nature of PC vs console optimization does not guarantee that one will always be more so than the other. A PC developer must "optimize" for several different architectures, CPU/GPU drivers...etc. A console developer need only focus on one. Does that mean that a PC developer has somehow done less optimization because their load is much larger than a console developer?

B) Rocketpig already did the breakout for the other way. Nothing more to say here.

C) Unfortunately for your argument, it is not provable at this point in time After the generation is over and we can look back on the libraries of all the systems, it may be a fact. However, until then, it is solely opinion. And even worse, it's subjective opinion.
A)  I'd call your Firefox example closer to debugging than optimization, but I freely acknowledge that I am not a programmer.  Are you?  rocketpig, you know a lot about this.  What do you say? 

As far as the nature of PC vs. console, it is just not possible to take full advantage of all the tweaks and tricks as console games do in the later years on PC hardware becasue it is so varied.  PC programmers can do just as much optimization or even much MORE work on optimization and the game itself will still be less optimized, because as you say their efforts have to be directed at so many kinds of hardware.  

B)  I wonder if he included the cost of the BR drive in that $600-$650 price range?  He was arguing about power in that response.  rocketpig? 

C)  Are you seriously suggesting that it is even POSSIBLE that the PS3 will not have, numerically, substantially more quality games than it does now, EVER?  I think that we have gone beyond opinion to say that that is not true for any console in the first half of its existence, which the PS3 is.  You may disagree.  Please answer the question in the first sentence of this paragraph. 

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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rocketpig on 28 March 2008

B) I wonder if he included the cost of the BR drive in that $600-$650 price range? He was arguing about power in that response. rocketpig?


No, that wasn't including the BD drive. That would bump the PC to ~$300 more than the 80GB PS3.

On the other hand, at that point you would have a fully functional multimedia hub that could double as a DVR with 500GB of storage.

My point isn't to bash the PS3; after all, I own one. I'm simply pointing out that it's not the powerhouse MikeB is talking it up to be. For a little more, you can get a PC that can do more things faster and better than the PS3 ever could.

BTW, this is what the PC specced out to:

2.4ghz Core2Duo
4GB DDR2
500GB HDD
512MB GeForce 8800




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

MikeB on 28 March 2008
rocketpig said:
MikeB said:
rocketpig said:
The high-end PS3 is $500. For roughly $100-150 more, I can put together a gaming PC that will annihilate the PS3 in every way, shape, and form. It will perform office tasks, run Photoshop, Illustrator, browse the internet, and do almost anything I might require of it. It will also run Crysis at medium-high settings, something the PS3 could only dream of doing. I know this because right now, I'm scouting out deals to build a new rig for gaming.

And don't bring up monitor and speakers. After all, without a television, the PS3 isn't much fucking good to anyone, is it?

A TV is a device people usually own regardless, owning a monitor in the bulk of situations only makes sense when you own a PC. IMO it´s a definite cost consideration to the advantage of consoles.

There are many people who only own a PC for webbrowsing and email, these functions are technically possible to achieve well on a console like the PS3 connected to a HDTV.

The PS3 is powerful enough to run Crysis like games, I think next year you will agree with this as well. As for providing a superior experience, many may not agree with you. The fuss of checking specs, upgrading hardware, TVs/HDTVs usually being bigger than the most common 17´inch monitors, having to use Windows on the PC, playing with friends using multiple PS3 Sixaxis controllers on the couch, etc. IMO it´s not as blank and white as you claim, some may well even prefer a Wii for gaming, maybe due to Mario or the Wii-mote. For others one specific exclusive game like Final Fantasy XIII may make the PS3 gaming experience superior as well. Back to the orignal point, it´s not impossible the PS3 will be a viable platform for a decade nomatter the latest and greatest GPU or CPU available for the PC.

Why bring preference into this? That wasn't my argument.

I can build a PC for roughly $200 more than a PS3 that will mop the floor with the console in overall capabilities and specifications, both for gaming and general purpose uses. You can't even argue that.

Yes, down the road the PS3 may be capable of running Crysis-like games. The key difference is that my theoritical PC can run Crysis itself. On medium-to-high settings, to boot.

If you want to nit-pick, you can hook a PC to any HDTV. The same HDTV you would need to take advantage of many things you use on your PS3. It's a non-issue. After all, the PS3 is pretty much useless for anything other than gaming if you're using it on an SDTV.


It can be agrued which features are more useful to consumers, does everyone really want to use Adobe Photoshop? I have an older copy of Adobe Photoshop on my PC and I am not planning on upgrading my PC for games, software or multimedia uses. Now I own a PS3, my PC will remain ´as is´ running XP (no desire to upgrade to Vista).

For entertainment a PS3 is very well specced, gaming, multimedia function and movies. Many people own a PC just for email and webbrowsing, functions which could be fully implemented on the PS3. The PS3 can technically run a game like Crysis, even an improved version taking advantage of the Cell or for instance better audio or more content using BluRay is possible (other areas like RAM usage may need sacrifices or workarounds). Just because Crysis doesn´t already run on the PS3 it doesn´t per se mean it´s not technically possible to run Crysis and vice versa for the games which are only available for the PS3.

Everyone I know own a monitor for their PCs. The PS3 is less of a fuss to use with a HDTV, it also easily fits most media cabinets. The PS3 isn´t reallty useless other than for gaming on a SDTV, at least on a PAL TV photo albums still look slick and the PS3 does a good job at outputting high quality music, webbrowing is a bit lacking in detail but still functional, etc.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

Final-Fan on 28 March 2008

@ rocketpig:  That blows my PC away and it's not even two years old. Sigh.

I'll upgrade for StarCraft 2. No sooner, no later.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

rocketpig on 28 March 2008
Final-Fan said:
@ rocketpig: That blows my PC away and it's not even two years old. Sigh.

I'll upgrade for StarCraft 2. No sooner, no later.

My jaw hit the floor when I saw the RAM prices. $100 for 4GB of 1066 DDR2. Crazy cheap.

I will also be building this rig for Starcraft. Well, that and Left4Dead. I'm not going to put up with all my friends enjoying zombie mayhem online together while I sit and stare at my 360. 




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

rocketpig on 28 March 2008

It can be agrued which features are more useful to consumers, does everyone really want to use Adobe Photoshop? I have an older copy of Adobe Photoshop on my PC and I am not planning on upgrading my PC for games, software or multimedia uses. Now I own a PS3, my PC will remain ´as is´ running XP (no desire to upgrade to Vista).

For entertainment a PS3 is very well specced, gaming, multimedia function and movies. Many people own a PC just for email and webbrowsing, functions which could be fully implemented on the PS3. The PS3 can technically run a game like Crysis, even an improved version taking advantage of the Cell or for instance better audio or more content using BluRay is possible (other areas like RAM usage may need sacrifices or workarounds). Just because Crysis doesn´t already run on the PS3 it doesn´t per se mean it´s not technically possible to run Crysis and vice versa for the games which are only available for the PS3.

Everyone I know own a monitor for their PCs. The PS3 is less of a fuss to use with a HDTV, it also easily fits most media cabinets. The PS3 isn´t reallty useless other than for gaming on a SDTV, at least on a PAL TV photo albums still look slick and the PS3 does a good job at outputting high quality music, webbrowing is a bit lacking in detail but still functional, etc.


Photoshop, iTunes, Office, it doesn't matter. The point is that this PC will be able to run pretty much anything.

I'm not saying that the PS3 is not a capable machine for the price; it is. But the fact remains that I can build a PC for a little more money that will do everything the PS3 does, do it faster, all while doing about 10,000 other things that the PS3 cannot do and will never be able to do.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/