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Forums - General Discussion - The Japanese Market is collapsing

ChichiriMuyo said:
 

I'm almost at a loss of words. I simply don't know how anyone can be so blind. It's been 5 years since the war ended in Iraq and they still aren't back up to 50% of their pre-war oil production. WHAT THE FUCK DID WE SECURE? I want to rip my hair out and throw it at you for being so daft. It's going to take 5 more years before they are close to having the production they used to and another 5-10 more after that before they get back onto the track we derailed them from.

And that's IF they can get back on track. If you haven't heard, Iraq has an electricity crisis going on, and if they can't get electricity to the oil rigs how in the hell are they going to get their production back up? Seriously, read some news. http://electroniciraq.net/news/aiddevelopment/The_Iraqi_electricity_crisis-3231.shtml Read anythign, for god's sake.

We've done nothing to secure the flow of oil from Iraq, and really done most of the things we could to STOP it. And threatening to attack Iran 4 years after they quit their nuclear weapons program didn't help the cost or supply of oil any, either. You'd have to be a complete fucking moron to think we've got anything secure in Iraq. We can't even keep our troops from throwing puppies off of cliffs and torturing people, let alone run their entire country.


The problem with the price of Oil is mostly our own doing, but is nothing really to do with the war.  There's currently enough oil output from OPEC to meet demand, but commodities speculation is really doing us in.  Iraq has massive oil reserves, so we have in fact secured a big chunk of oil from the war, assuming we can prevent the country from falling into chaos.



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Rath said:
starcraft said:
 

What he was talking about was politics, which he specifically DID mention. It was effectively a left-wing rant at George Bush, something that is becoming increasingly popular these days, whether justified or not.


Alright, because you clearly aren't going to accept my argument that Stof didn't go wildly off topic for no reason I will provide some proof. His post was in reply to Kazadooms post that follows.

"All you people blaming George Bush, please name one thing that he specifically has done to cause this? It is amazing to me that you think that one man has all this power. Please name one thing that he himself did specifically that caused Japan's bad market, if it really is that bad. Plus the US market other than the housing market is not bad anyway."

Clearly this post is based on economics. So for your position to be correct, not only would Stof have had to go wildly off topic but he would also have had to made a replythat would have no relevance to the post that he was replying to.


My apologies, I didn't look at the context of his thread.

Regardless however, my point stays the same.  The President of the USA is not (and could not be) soley responsible (or even largely responsible) for the downfall of the USA's economy. 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

Rath said:
 

Wait, you're trying to claim that America, one of the most introverted countries in the world, gave a damn about Europe during the Cold War? The entire war was because America saw the Soviets as a threat to their status as the worlds most powerful country which is why they wanted them to not get more powerful, hence MAD.

Lets face it, America hardly rushed to help the Allies in either WWI or WWII, you can hardly claim they owe you a debt.


Actually, America was quietly providing arms and money to the allies before entering in both World Wars. Additionally, American and Soviet involvement in WWII was absolutely critical in the end result. Without one of those two, the war would have lasted much longer, and may even have resulted in victory for the Nazis, and certainly for the Japanese.

In addition, in the Cold War, the people of Eastern Europe all wanted freedom, and they got it courtesy of the US. Everytime some Eastern Europe nation gets into any sort of diplomatic row with the Russians today, we back the Eastern Europeans which, in my opinion, is to our detriment, as we've more to gain from co-operating with Moscow than we do Vilnius or Warsaw.

Do they owe us a debt? No. But we shouldn't have a pro-Eastern Europe foreign policy when this is the prevailing attitude, as it's detrimental to our interests.



starcraft said:
 

My apologies, I didn't look at the context of his thread.

Regardless however, my point stays the same. The President of the USA is not (and could not be) soley responsible (or even largely responsible) for the downfall of the USA's economy.


 Stof never claimed he was largely responsible, merely that of anyone he was the most responsible.

@Phil. America only actually entered the wars both times after they came under some sort of attack, in WWI it was because a ship with American passengers was sunk, in WWII it was because of PH.

Also much of Eastern Europe  didn't get their freedom until the Soviet Union imploded, where did the US come into that?



Rath said:
 

Stof never claimed he was largely responsible, merely that of anyone he was the most responsible.

@Phil. America only actually entered the wars both times after they came under some sort of attack, in WWI it was because a ship with American passengers was sunk, in WWII it was because of PH.

Also much of Eastern Europe didn't get their freedom until the Soviet Union imploded, where did the US come into that?


We only *entered* the wars after being attacked. My point was that we were quietly supporting the Allied forces in both wars before entering(and make no mistake, our entry into each was as close as you can get to a forgone conclusion).  In WWI, we were shipping arms to the British.  Also, we didn't enter because of the sinking of the Lusitania, we entered as the result of a telegraph from the Germans to Mexico asking that they declare war on us.  In WWII, we had the lend lease program, whereby massive amounts of arms and financial support were given to the Allies.

As for the collapse of the Soviet Union, you don't honestly think that the US had nothing to do with that, do you?



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phil said:
 

We only *entered* the wars after being attacked. My point was that we were quietly supporting the Allied forces in both wars before entering(and make no mistake, our entry into each was as close as you can get to a forgone conclusion). In WWI, we were shipping arms to the British. Also, we didn't enter because of the sinking of the Lusitania, we entered as the result of a telegraph from the Germans to Mexico asking that they declare war on us. In WWII, we had the lend lease program, whereby massive amounts of arms and financial support were given to the Allies.

As for the collapse of the Soviet Union, you don't honestly think that the US had nothing to do with that, do you?


 The Soviet collapse was entirely inwards, their economy simply wasn't able to sustain itself and they were no longer ruled by an iron fist so the Union just broke apart. Indeed I would say the final ruler of the Soviet Union was responsible for its break up. Gorbachev I think it is?



Rath said:
 

The Soviet collapse was entirely inwards, their economy simply wasn't able to sustain itself and they were no longer ruled by an iron fist so the Union just broke apart. Indeed I would say the final ruler of the Soviet Union was responsible for its break up. Gorbachev I think it is?


They were forced into an arms race they couldn't win by the USA.......

I daresay a communism-based economy WOULD have collapsed on its own eventually (thats why China is quickly developing a Capitalism-based economy), but in the Soviet Union's case, the USA certainly helped the economy on it's way to destruction.  



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

Rath said:
 

The Soviet collapse was entirely inwards, their economy simply wasn't able to sustain itself and they were no longer ruled by an iron fist so the Union just broke apart. Indeed I would say the final ruler of the Soviet Union was responsible for its break up. Gorbachev I think it is?


That's an overly simplistic view of what actually happened.  While the ultimate responsibility might lie with Gorbachev, he doesn't get the entire blame.  As starcraft has pointed out, the Soviet Union strained itself in an arms race with the US that it couldn't sustain.  The arms race wasn't an option, either.  If they decided not to spend so much money on their military, they would have lost power.  Additionally, Soviet defeat in Afghanistan was responsible for further economic strain as well as loss of prestige.

Now, none of this would have been possible without the stupidity of Brezhnev and Gorbachev, but their stupidity alone wasn't enough to down one of the world's two superpowers.  It took a combination of factors to do it.



What you guys say sounds strange. I guess the americans view on how the Soviet Union collapsed must be very different. In none of the scenarios that I have heard does it involve the americans specifically in any way. The Soviet union collapsed because they couldn't have an arms race with the united states! That is strange to hear, because normally weapon exports are one of the more lucrative industries. Normally you make more money by selling weapons more than you have to spend.



gorgepir said:
What you guys say sounds strange. I guess the americans view on how the Soviet Union collapsed must be very different. In none of the scenarios that I have heard does it involve the americans specifically in any way. The Soviet union collapsed because they couldn't have an arms race with the united states! That is strange to hear, because normally weapon exports are one of the more lucrative industries. Normally you make more money by selling weapons more than you have to spend.

They ran their economy into the ground trying to maintain a power parity with the United States, they weren't building arms solely for export.  It costs money to house missiles.  It's not that complicated.