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Forums - General - Libertarianism?

Final-Fan on 15 March 2008

Makingmusic476, I think you missed the part where he explains that the FAQ is NOT a rebuttal to the serious points advanced by the various flavors of libertarianism, but to the talking points and bumper sticker arguments that libertarian evangelists vomit forth, usually onto the Internet.

Also, YOUR brand of libertarianism may want to merely shift responsibilities from the federal level to the state level, but that is NOT the goal of most libertarians I have encountered. In other words, your rebuttal is at least partly the "crosstalk" he also mentioned.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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Final-Fan on 15 March 2008
rocketpig said:
I'm a very moderate Libertarian and I'm registered as one. I joined the party partially because I believe in what they're saying (though not in the extremes most party members rant on and on about) and partially as a protest for the GOP allowing the Religious Right to control the party.
If you think that most members of the Libertarian Party are "ranting extremists", then why not join another third party more to your tastes? Voting for the lesser evil is one thing, but I wouldn't join a party on that basis.

I couldn't agree more about the Republican Party though. Today's Republican Party has not only fallen under the spell of its fundamentalist wing, it has also completely forgotten the fiscal conservatism it used to support, and let's not even talk about civil liberties. Since secular government, fiscal conservatism, and civil liberties are all things I consider vital to the health of the nation ... yeah, I'm not happy with Republicans.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

FreeTalkLive on 15 March 2008

It's great that this is being talked about here. Libertarianism is very common in America (maybe 15% of the population) but from what I understand, not so big in most parts of the world. Since many of this site's visitors are not from America, this thread is spreading the ideas of freedom.

I really cannot add anything to this thread, though. That FAQ is old and I've seen it been trashed over and over again for years. It would be too boring to do it again.

To me it comes down to this-
You own your body and should be able to do almost anything you want with it as long as you don't hurt anyone else.



 

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rocketpig on 15 March 2008
Final-Fan said:
rocketpig said:
I'm a very moderate Libertarian and I'm registered as one. I joined the party partially because I believe in what they're saying (though not in the extremes most party members rant on and on about) and partially as a protest for the GOP allowing the Religious Right to control the party.
If you think that most members of the Libertarian Party are "ranting extremists", then why not join another third party more to your tastes? Voting for the lesser evil is one thing, but I wouldn't join a party on that basis.

I couldn't agree more about the Republican Party though. Today's Republican Party has not only fallen under the spell of its fundamentalist wing, it has also completely forgotten the fiscal conservatism it used to support, and let's not even talk about civil liberties. Since secular government, fiscal conservatism, and civil liberties are all things I consider vital to the health of the nation ... yeah, I'm not happy with Republicans.

I'm all about fiscal responsibility, the Republic, and complete social freedom. I agree with almost all the principles of the Libertarian party, just not the extremes of many of its leaders and members. It's a natural fit for me though I will probably be voting McCain in November because IMO, he's the only moderate in this election and he shares a lot of my views (I still remember the anti-Religious Right speech he gave in 2000 that basically killed any chance of a nomination and respect him greatly for it). He's a little washed up now but I'll still take his common sense approach to the issues over anyone else running.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

DKII on 15 March 2008

I always judge a party by its extremes!



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Kasz216 on 15 March 2008
damkira said:

Libertarianism seems to be trendy these days because people won't admit to being a Republican.

 


 I thought libertarianism was left wing do to libertarains being all about pro-choice, pro-gay marriage and the like?  

I've ben called one before, mostly because I think most of the departments of the US government at best don't do anything and at worse actually screw things up more.

Like the department of edcuation... which seems to do nothing except come up with ways to deny schools money since they don't make any real decisions outside of blackmailing states.

So what am I if I think the National government wastes a lot of money on departments that aren't necessary.  Don't care if gay people get married, think it's a really good idea for the government to not spend more money then it takes in (Outside states of emergency) and think it'd be great if we had a basic national healtcare plan but also allowed for the running of private healthcare for those who could afford it?



Final-Fan on 15 March 2008
rocketpig said:
Final-Fan said:
rocketpig said:
I'm a very moderate Libertarian and I'm registered as one. I joined the party partially because I believe in what they're saying (though not in the extremes most party members rant on and on about) and partially as a protest for the GOP allowing the Religious Right to control the party.
If you think that most members of the Libertarian Party are "ranting extremists", then why not join another third party more to your tastes? Voting for the lesser evil is one thing, but I wouldn't join a party on that basis.

I couldn't agree more about the Republican Party though. Today's Republican Party has not only fallen under the spell of its fundamentalist wing, it has also completely forgotten the fiscal conservatism it used to support, and let's not even talk about civil liberties. Since secular government, fiscal conservatism, and civil liberties are all things I consider vital to the health of the nation ... yeah, I'm not happy with Republicans.
I'm all about fiscal responsibility, the Republic, and complete social freedom. I agree with almost all the principles of the Libertarian party, just not the extremes of many of its leaders and members. It's a natural fit for me though I will probably be voting McCain in November because IMO, he's the only moderate in this election and he shares a lot of my views (I still remember the anti-Religious Right speech he gave in 2000 that basically killed any chance of a nomination and respect him greatly for it). He's a little washed up now but I'll still take his common sense approach to the issues over anyone else running.
OK, but if a party mouths all the right principles but its members and leaders betray them routinely (Republican Party), that's no good. And principles that are good in moderation in contrast to fanatic extremist party practice is not acceptable either. (And I don't know enough about the Libertarian Party to say that's the case but that's what it sounds like based on your description.)

P.S. And just because someone is probably dying to ask, I'm not all that happy with the Democrats either, but the thought of voting for them doesn't make my stomach churn as it does for most Republicans. (McCain would have gotten my vote in 2000; now, he's dropped a notch or two in my book but more importantly I don't think he can reverse the direction of his party that quickly.) That's a pretty fucking low standard but it's what I'm faced with.

Off topic: Runoff voting FTW!

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan on 15 March 2008
Kasz216 said:
damkira said:
Libertarianism seems to be trendy these days because people won't admit to being a Republican.
 I thought libertarianism was left wing do to libertarains being all about pro-choice, pro-gay marriage and the like?  

I've ben called one before, mostly because I think most of the departments of the US government at best don't do anything and at worse actually screw things up more.

Like the department of edcuation... which seems to do nothing except come up with ways to deny schools money since they don't make any real decisions outside of blackmailing states.

So what am I if I think the National government wastes a lot of money on departments that aren't necessary.  Don't care if gay people get married, think it's a really good idea for the government to not spend more money then it takes in (Outside states of emergency) and think it'd be great if we had a basic national healtcare plan but also allowed for the running of private healthcare for those who could afford it?
What are you? Screwed, that's what.

But seriously, the limited universal health care would put serious bad blood between you and any libertarian group I've ever heard of, even though the rest seems fairly agreeable to them. I'd guess you and rocketpig would get along pretty well. If you and he and others got together maybe you could pull the Libertarian Party back from the brink and into a party I could respect. I'd never join you guys, but we'd have some goals in common.

damkira is of course referring to the cozy relationship that somehow exists between libertarians and right-wing Republicans die to their shared free-market/deregulation/etc. stances despite the fundamentalists' obvious goals in contrast with libertarians' very liberal stance on civil liberties. You'd think they'd get on with Democrats just as well as Republicans, for basically the opposite reason (strong on civil liberties but weak on free market), but it never seems to work out that way, from what I've heard at least.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Kasz216 on 15 March 2008
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
damkira said:
Libertarianism seems to be trendy these days because people won't admit to being a Republican.
I thought libertarianism was left wing do to libertarains being all about pro-choice, pro-gay marriage and the like?

I've ben called one before, mostly because I think most of the departments of the US government at best don't do anything and at worse actually screw things up more.

Like the department of edcuation... which seems to do nothing except come up with ways to deny schools money since they don't make any real decisions outside of blackmailing states.

So what am I if I think the National government wastes a lot of money on departments that aren't necessary. Don't care if gay people get married, think it's a really good idea for the government to not spend more money then it takes in (Outside states of emergency) and think it'd be great if we had a basic national healtcare plan but also allowed for the running of private healthcare for those who could afford it?
What are you? Screwed, that's what.

But seriously, the limited universal health care would put serious bad blood between you and any libertarian group I've ever heard of, even though the rest seems fairly agreeable to them. I'd guess you and rocketpig would get along pretty well. If you and he and others got together maybe you could pull the Libertarian Party back from the brink and into a party I could respect. I'd never join you guys, but we'd have some goals in common.


Eh yeah, that's what i figured. 

I mean.  I on the one hand governments are the best and in some cases only option to get some things done logically, and in other cases they are just a giant hinderance in the way of things.

Unfortunitly it seems like in nearly everything they should mettle they don't and everything they shouldn't they do.

 

 



ItsaMii on 15 March 2008

That faq is kinda like a "for dummies" version of a political essay. I am not a libertarian, I am a liberal. My political positions can be easily understood in Locke and Hayek.
However that faq has some kinda lame answers. Too simple for my tastes. And I disagree on several matters.



Satan said:

"You are for ever angry, all you care about is intelligence, but I repeat again that I would give away all this superstellar life, all the ranks and honours, simply to be transformed into the soul of a merchant's wife weighing eighteen stone and set candles at God's shrine."