By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - US presidential preference poll 3/9/08 - Obama 46, McCain 45

leo-j said:
I dont know what you guys have against hilary?

I find her to be the best for the job, she wants us to have universal health care, and she has the ability to change this country into what it was before Bush.

I dont really know why people want McCain.

 

Hillary I think would be the best President of the three candidates left. The hate she receives mostly comes from right wingers that would never vote for a Democrat anyway, and a lot of it is sexist in nature. I see things on the internet, that she's some evil witch socialist, and it's so outlandish I don't think it has much of an effect on independents and Democrats. Some Democrats don't like that she voted for Iraq war, but the vast majority of Democrats would be fine with her as the nominee.

On McCain he is the media's darling. It's really pathetic how much those in the media suck up to this guy. He's no fricken Maverick, he's the candidate for Bush's third term. Both these Democratic candidates needs to start tearing his way too pure image down because the media isn't going to do it for them.



Around the Network
luinil said:
This is how I see these things: When the government takes money away from someone rich and gives it to someone poor, Democrats/liberals call it compassion.

When Republicans try (and often fail) at keeping the government out of the pockets of individuals so they can do what they see fit, including donating money, Republicans call that compassion...

Now I don't know about you guys, but I don't see how the police force of the government forcefully taking away from one person and giving to the other person is compassionate. There is no compassion is forcing someone to be "compassionate."

This is an extremely one-sided, not to mention short-sighted view.  I don't mean to insult you, so let me explain.

The central idea behind capitalism and free markets is that they make use of inherent differences in human ability.  Person A is better at some task than person B, and B is better at other tasks than A.  So if A focuses on making item 1 and B on item 2, they can trade and end up with more or better items 1 and 2 than if they each had to make their own.  The corollary to this is that what's good for one person is good for everybody, and what's bad for one person is bad for everybody.

So let's see how this plays out in a more real-world example, and I'll stick with health care since it's already been brought up in this thread.  When someone (say Bob) is down on his luck, say he gets sick or needs an expensive operation, he takes a hit to his financial well-being.  Perhaps he even loses his job because of so much time missed from work.  Then they can no longer afford to buy things.  This hurts the companies that produce those things.  It also hurts the company he works for, since they no longer have his expertise available to them to produce those quality goods.

We can help Bob out by paying for part of his operation and giving him some money to live on while he recovers, so that he can pay his bills and not lose his house, and then Bob can get his job back or get a new job and return to being a productive member of society again, and continue producing and consuming goods.  So basically, when we tax the rich, their taxes are helping to keep lots of Bobs on their feet, so that they can keep buying the goods that keep the rich people's profits high.

This plays out in all kinds of different ways; health care and welfare are just two examples.  Another example might be highway maintenance, to give all the Bobs roads to drive on so they can get to work and produce, and get to the stores and consume.  Or how about medical research grants to keep all the Bobs healthy, or social security so the Bobs can continue to consume after they retire.  It all comes back to the central idea of capitalism: What's good for one person is good for everybody, and what's bad for one person is bad for everybody.

Now, one Bob getting sick or getting laid off or losing a bet on the stock market isn't going to ruin an entire company, but when it happens to enough Bobs at the same time, it can have a devastating ripple effect on the economy.  You may remember a little something from history class called The Great Depression.  Most of these government programs were put into place as a reaction to The Great Depression, to provide a safety net that would help cushion the blow of sudden changes to one's income, protecting individuals and, by extension, the economy as a whole.

All of this isn't to say that there aren't problems with certain specific welfare programs, specific health care programs, specific highway construction earmarks, etc.  But to generalize and say that it's all about taking money from rich people and giving it to poor people is entirely missing the point.  When the programs work the way they're supposed to, the rich people and poor people share the benefits.



eab said:
Two notes about health care and Canada:

1) Canada's health care isn't perfect. They don't offer some of the more expensive, more effective treatments in the US. Not to mention the fact that if you want a simple surgery you have to wait for months. You know what many Canadians do if they want better quality, faster treatments? They go to the US. There are hundreds of clinics right under the border that are there for Canadians who want to pay for better health care. People who want the best treatments go to the US, I mean heck even the Premier of the USSR once flew to Johns Hopkins for an eye surgery since no one in Russia was capable of doing it. Bottom line: Canada's healthcare is very good, but don't get the idea that it the best for everyone and every country.

2) People seem to get the idea that if your poor, you die in the U.S. this simply isn't true. If you are sick and show up at a hospital you get the treatment you need. If you can't pay for it the taxpayers foot the bill. I work at a hospital part time and I can tell you, about 30% of the patients that stay overnight end up not paying for it. The U.S. already spends about 1/4 of its taxation income on medicare, medicaid, and the like. Bottom line: Sure in the U.S. you don't get free prescriptions or surgery, but no one is denied life saving operations.

A more correct way to put it is "Canada's healthcare system isn't adequate" ... Every political party within Canada (provincial or federal) admits that; unfortunately the feeling of entitlement that has been built by creating a national social program prevents an open discussion on fixing the system. Currently, every provincial government's largest expense is healthcare and the costs are increasing at a rate far faster than inflation or tax revenues; at the current rate of growth in costs, in 5 years the quality level of service we currently see will be a distant dream.

Whenever their is a debate on two tier healthcare people talk about the horrors of the "American" healthcare system, but (as you mentioned) there is no corpse wagon  going around communities with a man calling for you to "Bring out your dead" ... which may be what we will see in the near future in Canada if something doesn't change.

 



HappySqurriel said:

Whenever their is a debate on two tier healthcare people talk about the horrors of the "American" healthcare system, but (as you mentioned) there is no corpse wagon going around communities with a man calling for you to "Bring out your dead" ... which may be what we will see in the near future in Canada if something doesn't change. 


I find that deliciously ironic, since whenever there is a debate about healthcare in the US, people talk about the "horrors" of socialized medicine in Canada and Europe.



Entroper said:
HappySqurriel said:

Whenever their is a debate on two tier healthcare people talk about the horrors of the "American" healthcare system, but (as you mentioned) there is no corpse wagon going around communities with a man calling for you to "Bring out your dead" ... which may be what we will see in the near future in Canada if something doesn't change.


I find that deliciously ironic, since whenever there is a debate about healthcare in the US, people talk about the "horrors" of socialized medicine in Canada and Europe.


 That goes to show you that not one system is all that great, and that people think everything will be better "if only" some one thing changed. Trust me, I work in health care, and its just a crazy buisness. No other sector in the world has such an inelastic demand, regardless of prices. If I say I can take away your chronic pain I can charge $10,000 or $100,000 and I will get just about the same amount of customers. Health care doesn't follow the laws of capitalism that our entire culture is based on. Something unknown needs to change before it bankrupts every insurance company and every socialist government.



Around the Network
eab said:

That goes to show you that not one system is all that great, and that people think everything will be better "if only" some one thing changed. Trust me, I work in health care, and its just a crazy buisness. No other sector in the world has such an inelastic demand, regardless of prices. If I say I can take away your chronic pain I can charge $10,000 or $100,000 and I will get just about the same amount of customers. Health care doesn't follow the laws of capitalism that our entire culture is based on. Something unknown needs to change before it bankrupts every insurance company and every socialist government.


I think you hit the chink in the armor for the conservative argument about health care.  I've been saying for a while now, the reason we can't fix health care with deregulation and letting the market run wild is because the law of supply and demand just doesn't work the same way with health care as it does for most things.  Of course, pure socialism causes its own problems.  That's why we need a smarter mix of free market principles and regulation to fix this mess.



ph4nt said:
It scares me that America is actually voting for Hillary Clinton.

 Me too.



PSN ID: Sorrow880

Gamertag: Sorrow80

Wii #: 8132 1076 3416 7450

For today... Sunday March 9th,

Clinton 47%
Obama 45%

Clinton 47%
McCain 45%

Obama 46%
McCain 45%

All within the margin of error!

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll