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Forums - Politics - Manning sentenced to 35 years

 

What do you think about the sentence?

Free Manning! 51 45.54%
 
Too harsh! 15 13.39%
 
Just right! 5 4.46%
 
Death penalty for traitor! 10 8.93%
 
Who is Manning? 31 27.68%
 
Total:112
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
mai said:
theprof00 said:

That image presents a valid counter-point to all the "if you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear" bs justifying PRISM and such.


Seriously though... did Manning actually release anything useful?  I don't really remember anything.  Were the Palestinian Papers Manning?

 

All I remember is a bunch of silly back channel foreign policy comments.  Nothing actually worthy of a leak.   Unlike Snowden, the whole Manning thing just seemed like it was done because they had an axe to grind with the US government.


For reasons that have just recently become known.

I think there was a fair bit of relevant information in there, about abuses by various Army and Marine personell in Iraq and Afghanistan, and Manning likely would have a much better PR going for him/her if that was all he/she had chosen to disclose rather than the banal diplomatic cables.

Also, not revealing his/her transgender status until the conviction makes it sound like a plea for attention (i know it's serious, but the way it comes out like this makes it sound like he just went off the deep end, woke up one day and told the guards "I am now Chelsea."). It's going to make for all sorts of uncomfortable matters for the T in LGBT, especially if this was Manning's motive.

Was there?  The only thing I picked up on was some cases where journalists and such were accidentally fired on.  To me they aren't crimes or abuses until they're intentional.  Though yeah, i think the huge dirth of well... more or less worthless cables that were the equivlent of revealing intercouple gossip at the end of a party really did hurt their PR.

 

As for the transgender stuff... I imagine the reason she waited until now was because of her lawyer.  Holding on to it as a card to play at setencing, so the prosecution couldn't be prepared for it.

 

I mean the Military's treatment of the transgender certaintly does go a long way in explaining why someome would release all of those cables.

 

dear lord, can you please stop calling Manning "she/her". he's a guy, he has a penis, he has a Y chromosome, he has male DNA. nothing about him is a "she"

if he is a she, then im the queen of england.



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mai said:
sc94597 said:
mai said:
sc94597 said:

"Nation" in the context I'm using (as referring to nation-states) is not a political term, it's a socioeconomic one analagous to the term "ethnicity" and historically the U.S was even more divided than it is today in terms of politics and economics.

A lot of today's nations have been more divided politically and economically in the past, doesn't really strengthen your argument here. I use nation in strictly nation-state meaning, i.e. in the meaning it was brought to the political sciences, which absolutely has nothing to do with ethnicity (btw how this's a socioeconomic term?). Spare me from Old French, Latin, Greek etc. -- not relevant.

It wasn't meant to strengthen my argument, in fact, it was an entirely different argument. Nationalism is rooted in the ethnocentric definition of "nation." How can a country with such a diverse cultural, ancestral, economic, political, and ethnic basis be one nation? How can a state with no official language, cultural traditions, etc be a nation-state? 

Just look at the characteristics provided by wikipedia. 

Ok, I'm on shaky ground here, but whatever.

Don't see it that way, nationalism (negative connotations aside) is above any ethnical or religious definitions, it denies them. That's the way the still relevant doctrine of nationalism was first practically implemented during and after French Revolution (American Revolution qualifies as well btw). It practically solved the social, religious and ethnical problems of France at the time, because religion wasn't able to do it anymore. Nationalism takes place of religion as leading ideology and, as many political doctrines, acts in many ways as religion. Hence the term "empereur des Francais" as opposed to "empereur de France", because French nation was born at the time. In that regard Americans are very nationalistic (negative connotations included but not exclusive).


//There're forums where people got banned for quoting Wikipedia ;)

I also quoted sources at major universities. Anyway, an easy way to refute these United States as a nation-state is this logical proposition. 

- Assume the U.S is a nation-state. If this is true, then why are there sovereign states (50 of them as of today) which separate the nation? This is a contradiction. 

A nation-state contains the whole nation and only that nation. It doesn't divide the nation among many other co-sovereign states. If you look at the period right after the revolution, you'll notice quite explicitly that there was no natural union among the colonies besides their geographical status. That's why the articles of confederation were tried, and that's why the U.S constitution was so contested. As time passed, these U.S became even more diversified with immigration.  

You can look at Musollini's Italy and Nazi Germany to get examples of nationalism rooted in ethnicity. You can look at Serbia's succession from Austro-Hungary for nationalism rooted in history. You could look at modern day sessionist movements, such as Catalonia for how nation-states form from imperial ones. 



Death penalty. 



sc94597 said:

- Assume the U.S is a nation-state. If this is true, then why are there sovereign states (50 of them as of today) which separate the nation? This is a contradiction.

A nation-state contains the whole nation and only that nation. It doesn't divide the nation among many other co-sovereign states. If you look at the period right after the revolution, you'll notice quite explicitly that there was no natural union among the colonies besides their geographical status. That's why the articles of confederation were tried, and that's why the U.S constitution was so contested. As time passed, these U.S became even more diversified with immigration.  

You can look at Musollini's Italy and Nazi Germany to get examples of nationalism rooted in ethnicity. You can look at Serbia's succession from Austro-Hungary for nationalism rooted in history. You could look at modern day sessionist movements, such as Catalonia for how nation-states form from imperial ones. 

It's called federation, a lot of nations' form of state is federation, more or less centralized.


BTW Italy and Germany are prone examples of a newly established nations out of multiple states. The fact that Nazi Germany practiced ethnic cleansing doesn't rule out a fact that this was an attempt to build a nation after demise of WW1 on a very shacky ground of combination of Land's that could fell of rather easily dumping all previous efforts in nation-building since Bismarck. Hence the practices of repatriation of volksdeutsche (with very loose definitions of who is "deutsche" and who is not) or Austrian anschluss, which was very welcomed by Austrians. Why? Because they had similar problems after WW1 and dissolution of Austria-Hungary, the crisis of self-identification as a nation. Israel is another fresh expample of nation-building that didn't go too well, tons of such examples. Nationalism was discredited multiple times after all these years obviously.

 

So, all in all I think the problem of misunderstanding is in the following:

1) Our definitions of nation and ethnicity aren't perfectly aligned.
2) You perceive a nation as a modern person with modern mindset, where nation and nationalism are strictly negative things, descredited multiple times throughout the hsitory (happens with all political doctrines). Doesn't look like you
 get historical context here.
3) You think the US case is unique, which is true and not true at the same time. True to the degree of historical uniquness of said nation, not true because it could be easily typified and put in box as much as everyone else.



sales2099 said:
the2real4mafol said:
That sentence should go to all the people at the NSA and all those involved in the last couple US administrations. (since Bush in 2000 at least). It's just unbelievable that someone who does the legitimate thing (whistleblowing to spying in a country whose constitution says spying is wrong) is arrested while government continues to get away with it's crimes, only to have the clowns that run my country only happy to help.

Close the NSA! Leave Afghanistan! Impeach Obama and the rest! And so on. America needs a president (and a senate and congress) who respects it's constitution and it's people along with the sovereignty of all other countries.

Yes, i believe manning was right in what he did and i hope Snowden stays in Russia. They are not the criminals here.

Its ironic because Russia is even worse then the States in terms of human rights polocies.

If irony was ice cream, Snowden would have a pool filled with Vanilla

yeah it's just politically convienient for Russia as Snowden can be used as a weapon against the US, but perferably i would want all countries with spying programs and such to just stop now. Russia especially don't look good with Chechnya and the whole anti-gay laws now. 



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sales2099 said:
the2real4mafol said:
attaboy said:
I have no idea who he is. Did he kill a Trayvon Martin? I keep track of cases where Trayvon Martins were killed.

No Manning is linked with Snowden who whistleblowed the NSA's activities. For some reason, both are seen as demons by some people despite doing the right thing. 

Technically he breached his contract and compromised his country. If he didn't like his job, he should have quit.

So the US constitution doesn't count all of a sudden? I mean wouldn't you do the same if you discovered that your job was wrong in it's actions? People had to know about the NSA whether or not the government wanted to say anything. 



Xbox Series, PS5 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch 2 will outsell the PS5 by 2030

spurgeonryan said:
the2real4mafol said:
attaboy said:
I have no idea who he is. Did he kill a Trayvon Martin? I keep track of cases where Trayvon Martins were killed.

No Manning is linked with Snowden who whistleblowed the NSA's activities. For some reason, both are seen as demons by some people despite doing the right thing. 

So....never heard of this or him and do not care to until now. Him and some other guy named Snowden, told the world what the NSA has been doing? Were the activities illegal?

 

Will he have a chance for appeal?

The NSA is spying on you, meaning your right to privacy (4th ammendment) is being ignored. Don't that bother you? 

So i guess their activities are illegal but because government does it, it don't seem to matter whether it is legal or not. It's still wrong though. Especially, when your country has a proper constitution to protect such rights. I suggest you learn what your rights are, otherwise they might as well not exist. 

And finally i don't think Manning will have a chance for appeal, he should of ran while he could. 



Xbox Series, PS5 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch 2 will outsell the PS5 by 2030

what alleged war crimes did she expose exactly? the biggest thing i recall from this leaked information was the killing of the reporters who just happened to be with people who had AKs and possibly an RPG.


snowden could be considered a whistleblower i think, but i do not recall anything of that quality being released with the information by this woman.



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