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Forums - Microsoft - Microsoft defends the Xbox One’s licensing, used game policies

oniyide on 12 June 2013
LiquorandGunFun said:
maximrace said:
Very good read, seems they will give steam like sales


when i see a full game with all DLC for $7.50 or less on M$ store, i will believe it. i highly doubt it will be anything like steam sales. not from experiences with them in the past.


Pretty much this, i feel sorry for anyone who actually thinks its going to go down that way. Dont see why people believe that the digital copies will be that much cheaper when we have evidence that they rarely are. 

As for training, hell good luck. We'll see how well the system does, cause the consumers could very well train MS to go back to what worked for them.



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BinaryDelt on 12 June 2013
BenVTrigger said:
BinaryDelt said:
BenVTrigger said:

They could but they dont want to be labeled as a "download only" machine just yet. Ive commented on this before.

The main reason MS is introducing a DRM / always online console is because they view the X1 as the segway between the age of the disc and the digital only age. MS themselves are ready to embrace the digital model but they are keenly aware the consumer is not.

Thus they created the X1 to slowly conform people over to abandoning the disc. They fool the consumer into feeling like hes going out and buying physical media which hes used to but then implement features on the actual console that treat it like a digital only game. They are trying to slowly force people out of the habits that they are accustomed to with consoles instead of diving strait into digital only and alienating the consumer completly.

The X1 will be MS last console with physical media. They are training their consumer to embrace download only.


I agree, though I think Microsoft has it backwards.  Consumers tell companies where the industry is headed through their actions, not the other way around.  There will come a day where the digital sales for a new AAA title exceed that of the physical media version, but that's not today.  This philosophy makes too many assumptions about the level of broadband infrastructure in homes and that people are ready to abandon their physical media.

Look at the CD.  When iTunes came out, companies didn't stop making CDs.  They make more money if someone buys an entire album over a couple singles (the major flaw in my comparison, but you get why I'm making it), and consumers aren't ready to let go of CDs.  As CD sales slow, that section of retail stores gets smaller, and eventually disappears.  People are still buying CDs (myself included), and for a lot of different reasons.  Some people like feeling like they own something they've paid for, some like collecting and showing off their stash when friends come over.  I personally like to buy a CD and rip the MP3s off it, the CD serving as my legal backup copy, not tied to iTunes or any other service.

For games, I like owning the physical media.  There's an excitement with browsing games on the shelf, getting a new game from the store, that "new game smell", flipping through the instruction manual, admiring the box art, and amassing a collection that you can show off to your friends.  I'm a PlayStation Plus subscriber and I've filled up the hard drive on my main PS3 slim.  Does that mean I'm ready to give up physical media?  No.

A better path towards leading the consumer to all digital adoption may have been to offer digital copies of games for less than their physical counterparts.  With no manufacturing cost, they could offer games for $5 less, which could be attractive to some.  Sure, there's infrastructure required to support the digital download and it isn't free, but it's a negligible cost to facilitate a consumer-friendly transition to digital.  Would I still pay the $5 premium for my physical media?  I would, but they'd get a lot closer to their goal without pissing a bunch of people off.


Solid post and you make some excellent points.

The onky thing Ill really comment on though is the idea the consumer tells the business world what direction to go. This isnt always true especially when business models start adapting to long term goals and ideas. Usualky the infrasctructure is designed far before full scale implementation in order to be "future proof" and often times products are designed to move consumers towards the companies end goal.

In the case of the gaming industry the end goal is digital only. Sony is also slowly trying to move people this direction. The free games and discounts on digital games PS Plus offers is a prime example. They are getting people used to the idea of downloading full sized games.


Thanks, and excellent point.  PS Plus has taken me, a physical media loyalist, and filled up my hard drive with downloads.  It actually warmed me up to buying my first $60 game on PSN - PlayStation All Stars Battle Royale.  I had friends over and wanted to play it right then.  I only regret it slightly because I'd like to see that box among my other games, but their approach has worked to an extent on me.

It's about freedom of choice combined with an incentive to adopt the new way, not attaching restrictions on the old way to force the new way.

 

This quote tree has been shortened.

yo_john117



Xenostar on 12 June 2013

These seems Crap,
Why does a digital future mean DRM for disk games now?
Why does a digital future mean digital games need to check in every 24 hours?
Its unneededunwanted DRM plane and simple,



BenVTrigger on 12 June 2013
BinaryDelt said:
BenVTrigger said:
BinaryDelt said:

I agree, though I think Microsoft has it backwards.  Consumers tell companies where the industry is headed through their actions, not the other way around.  There will come a day where the digital sales for a new AAA title exceed that of the physical media version, but that's not today.  This philosophy makes too many assumptions about the level of broadband infrastructure in homes and that people are ready to abandon their physical media.

Look at the CD.  When iTunes came out, companies didn't stop making CDs.  They make more money if someone buys an entire album over a couple singles (the major flaw in my comparison, but you get why I'm making it), and consumers aren't ready to let go of CDs.  As CD sales slow, that section of retail stores gets smaller, and eventually disappears.  People are still buying CDs (myself included), and for a lot of different reasons.  Some people like feeling like they own something they've paid for, some like collecting and showing off their stash when friends come over.  I personally like to buy a CD and rip the MP3s off it, the CD serving as my legal backup copy, not tied to iTunes or any other service.

For games, I like owning the physical media.  There's an excitement with browsing games on the shelf, getting a new game from the store, that "new game smell", flipping through the instruction manual, admiring the box art, and amassing a collection that you can show off to your friends.  I'm a PlayStation Plus subscriber and I've filled up the hard drive on my main PS3 slim.  Does that mean I'm ready to give up physical media?  No.

A better path towards leading the consumer to all digital adoption may have been to offer digital copies of games for less than their physical counterparts.  With no manufacturing cost, they could offer games for $5 less, which could be attractive to some.  Sure, there's infrastructure required to support the digital download and it isn't free, but it's a negligible cost to facilitate a consumer-friendly transition to digital.  Would I still pay the $5 premium for my physical media?  I would, but they'd get a lot closer to their goal without pissing a bunch of people off.


Solid post and you make some excellent points.

The onky thing Ill really comment on though is the idea the consumer tells the business world what direction to go. This isnt always true especially when business models start adapting to long term goals and ideas. Usualky the infrasctructure is designed far before full scale implementation in order to be "future proof" and often times products are designed to move consumers towards the companies end goal.

In the case of the gaming industry the end goal is digital only. Sony is also slowly trying to move people this direction. The free games and discounts on digital games PS Plus offers is a prime example. They are getting people used to the idea of downloading full sized games.


Thanks, and excellent point.  PS Plus has taken me, a physical media loyalist, and filled up my hard drive with downloads.  It actually warmed me up to buying my first $60 game on PSN - PlayStation All Stars Battle Royale.  I had friends over and wanted to play it right then.  I only regret it slightly because I'd like to see that box among my other games, but their approach has worked to an extent on me.

It's about freedom of choice combined with an incentive to adopt the new way, not attaching restrictions on the old way to force the new way.

I agree. On a personal level I dont like the way MS is forcing this on the consumer at all. Im only buying an X1 due to the exclusive lineup and my friends list. But was just explaining the over all business model as I think many people dont realize why MS is taking the approach it is.

 

This quote tree has been shortened.

yo_john117



BenVTrigger on 12 June 2013
Xenostar said:
These seems Crap,
Why does a digital future mean DRM for disk games now?
Why does a digital future mean digital games need to check in every 24 hours?
Its unneededunwanted DRM plane and simple,


I already explained this. Its to get people used to the lack of consumer rights that inherintly come with digital and yes to introduce unwanted DRM.

There is no need for DRM on digital games obviously as the moment a game is downloaded its tied to your account. DRM has always been the physical answer to a digital model. 

DRM and digital games downloaded to a single account = the same thing.



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oniyide on 12 June 2013

Oh Im sure people know why MS is doing it, but most who are against it dont care, since it doesnt benefit them in anyway.



BenVTrigger on 12 June 2013
oniyide said:
Oh Im sure people know why MS is doing it, but most who are against it dont care, since it doesnt benefit them in anyway.


Which is understandable. I was just discussing business not personal preferences. Certainly from a consumer centric point of view Sony seems to be taking a far better approach.



tiffac on 12 June 2013
BenVTrigger said:
Soleron said:
They plan to "educate the customer" on why DRM is good? Good luck.


That is indeed their goal. No idea if it will have any success or not but that is what the X1 is designed to do. There is already no rights with digital titles. When you download a game off iOS, Steam, or PSN / XBLA you cant resell it.  Its yet another obstacle in the way that the consumer isnt fully used to yet.

If MS can somehow convince the general consumer to get used to not being able to resell or lend physical media they will be less likely to fight them over digital rights of games. As I said MS is trying to train the consumer to embrace digital only model over the next 5 or so years. For better or for worse.


But there are ways to share digital games. I mean MS is doing the 10 share family thing. On the current consoles you can log in your account on your friends console and redownload the games that you have already purchased and he can then install it on his account or play it off yours.

So I do not see the reason for this training thing with regards to restricting the Physical media and does the exhaustion doctrine even apply to digital content?



Xenostar on 12 June 2013
BenVTrigger said:
Xenostar said:
These seems Crap,
Why does a digital future mean DRM for disk games now?
Why does a digital future mean digital games need to check in every 24 hours?
Its unneededunwanted DRM plane and simple,


I already explained this. Its to get people used to the lack of consumer rights that inherintly come with digital and yes to introduce unwanted DRM.

There is no need for DRM on digital games obviously as the moment a game is downloaded its tied to your account. DRM has always been the physical answer to a digital model. 

DRM and digital games downloaded to a single account = the same thing.

 

Surely a better way to get consumers use to it, would be to have lower digital pricing and have them slowly convert from disk to digital, And are you saying that i we can play digital games on xbox one without having to check in every 24 hours?

 

Sony said that Vita is now 60% digital, seems like converting people this way is working for them, no massive outcries there



BenVTrigger on 12 June 2013
tiffac said:
BenVTrigger said:
Soleron said:
They plan to "educate the customer" on in hy DRM is good? Good luck.


That is indeed their goal. No idea if it will have any success or not but that is what the X1 is designed to do. There is already no rights with digital titles. When you download a game off iOS, Steam, or PSN / XBLA you cant resell it.  Its yet another obstacle in the way that the consumer isnt fully used to yet.

If MS can somehow convince the general consumer to get used to not being able to resell or lend physical media they will be less likely to fight them over digital rights of games. As I said MS is trying to train the consumer to embrace digital only model over the next 5 or so years. For better or for worse.


But there are ways to share digital games. I mean MS is doing the 10 share family thing. On the current consoles you can log in your account on your friends console and redownload the games that you have already purchased and he can then install it on his account or play it off yours.

So I do not see the reason for this training thing with regards to restricting the Physical media and does the exhaustion doctrine even apply to digital content?

There are sharing systems in place with digital but they are still restricted. Its not a wholly free market where you can do whatever you want with your property like there is with physical media.

Its a question that is going to take HUGE focus over the next 10 years and not just In gaming. There is going to be a lot of discussion about what we own and what rights we have as consumers in an all digital market.