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Forums - Gaming - Good DRM vs Bad DRM

In my opinion, the only good DRM are online passes. You have to be online anyways. I'm not going to complain about a developer using DRM for the onlinee since it doesn't effect the game when internet is completely gone.  I wouldn't have been able to play online anyways, so doesn't make a difference.  It's good for developers because they can actually make extra money off people who buy used.

Bad DRM is everything else. DLC that comes packaged with a brand new game, on disc DLC, day one DLC or DLC you can be sure that was developed pre launch, online passes that lock out single player content, authentication of discs for use on a console, etc.



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One thing that I fully expect to happen is that the 24 hour checkup for The One will only be applied to physical games because there's no need to do it if you buy the game digitally. I would be very surprised if it wasn't that way.

Either way I guess we'll know more about the finer details closer to launch.

 

EDIT: I also fully expect the same license policy that the 360 currently has where you can license your games 2-3 times a year to different consoles and the titles work perfectly on all of them regardless of what account is playing them. I think any console that you have licensed content on will be available to anyone else who plays on that console (just like it is now)



Galaki said:
Both good and bad DRM are bad DRM.

This. Games that are DRM-free can have all the "convenience" of Steam as well.



Soleron said:
Galaki said:
Both good and bad DRM are bad DRM.

This. Games that are DRM-free can have all the "convenience" of Steam as well.


Steam itself is a form of DRM.
You can't launch games you bought on/for Steam without it, granted it has an offline mode etc'.

True DRM-free PC gaming can be had at gog.com.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

 

So some people are bringing up that games can have no DRM and still be convenient.

That is obvious.

The best implementation of gaming I have seen (in my opinion) is Humble Bundle.

1. You buy the game DRM-free for a price of your choosing.

2. You can choose to tie them to an account and you can download them from anywhere.

3. You can play them on any computer (PC, Mac, Linux).

4. You can choose whether or not you want to activate them on Steam.

5. You can send them to anyone, and it can be downloaded and installed as many times as you want.

In a perfect world, every game would be released on Humble Bundle.



This is not a perfect world.

Thus I had to draw the line. What can be considered good, and what can be considered bad DRM. I call Steam good. Why? Because it's not perfect like Humble Bundle, but it's damn near close. I can get almost all of the convenience listed above, and feel almost none of the consequences of DRM. Yes, there are still problems with Steam being DRM. For one, I have to install Steam to access Steam games. Another being I have to be logged into Steam at all times to played games (but I can still play offline). I also cannot resell my games and I cannot give them away. However, in my opinion, the advantages of having Steam far outweigh the disadvantages. I love Steam sales, I love Steam cloud, I love offline mode, and I love being able to download and install games with the click of a button.

Thus, my definition of "good" DRM: when the advantages of a DRM service outweigh the disadvantages.

This is of course, subjective. You can all have your very own definitions of what "good" DRM is or just not have "good" DRM at all. Personally, I see Steam as being a very competitive service versus physical media. But that's my own opinon, and your free to judge it how you choose.



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No such thing as good DRM. LOL



theshonen8899 said:

I've seen parallels drawn between XBOne and Steam or XBOne and iOS/Android. As a prolific user of all these platforms (except XBOne obviously), I wanted to point out the differences between what is essentially "good" DRM practices and "bad" DRM practices. I do believe there is such thing as "good" DRM, and I'll explain why.


First a clarification. DRM is any kind of digital rights management whether it’s a physical or digital good. In theory, the PS3, Wii U, 3DS, or any console that can download games uses DRM. The reason the XBOne is being criticized for DRM is because it is using DRM for physical games, not just downloads. Sony and EA have done similar things in the form of Online Pass in the past. But again, XBOne is being criticized for DRM because it is also using DRM for single-player, offline games, not just online games.

 

Device freedom

Most online ecosystems allow you to enjoy the benefits of owning multiple devices and sharing your content across all these devices. For PlayStation, you are allowed two PS3s and two PS Vitas/PSPs to share all your game content. For iOS, you are allowed ten devices. For Steam and Android, you are allowed an unlimited amount of devices. The reason XBOne's policy is abusive is because while it does allow "family" accounts, these are limited to 10 accounts which must perform an online check every hour (none of the other above ecosystems require this). This is a stark contrast to Steam's "Offline Mode", where a friend can sign into my account, go offline, and resume playing for all of eternity.

 

Competition

iOS and PSN both fail here, but Steam and Android excel. There are a few reasons for this. First, people seem to forget that Steam is not the only way to get games on PC. Amazon, GreenManGaming, GOG, etc. are all becoming more and more competitive on the PC platform. I have seen triple A games like Hitman Absolution or Arkham Origins sell for $40 for pre-order. PC deals like Steam sales, Amazon sales, Humble Bundle, etc. are so common and so cheap that DRM is almost completely forgotten. The sales on PC are so vast that there is an entire Reddit forum full of them. Similarly with Android, it's open ecosystem allows Amazon to compete with the Play Stores prices, which pushes Google to keep its prices competitive and release sales. Yes, PSN and Xbox both have sales, but they pale in comparison to the deals an open ecosystem provides. Not having these advantages and piling on restrictive DRM is a pretty hard sell.

 

Why Steam and others are "Good DRM"

My definition of "good" DRM is a DRM that simultaneously offers protection to the developers and convenience for consumers. As a PC gamer, I have been exposed to far too many cases of what is abusive DRM, such as SecuROM, UPlay, Blizzard, etc. In the case of Steam and Android, both provide positive benefits to the consumer. As a university student, I have a PC at home and a laptop in college. With Steam, I am allowed to have my entire game collection on both computers and my save games synced with the free cloud. By comparison, I must lug my entire PS3 game collection through airport security and pay $5/month for PSN Plus to enjoy this same experience. Another thing I can do is give my brother my Steam account information, and have us both play games simultaneously. If I log on when he is logged on, Steam simply switches him to offline mode and we can both play concurrently. I cannot do this on the PS3 with a physical disk, unless I buy another physical disk. There are advantages to having DRM free PS3 disks, of course. However, the fact that Steam can offer me these kinds of conveniences is why I consider Steam to be "good" DRM. Steam takes very little away from me in exchange for a nice amount of advantages.

 

Why XBOne is "Bad DRM"

XBOne is interesting because it is an combination of the worst DRM PC has ever seen put to full throttle. Whether it's SecuROM's five game activation, or UPlay/Blizzard's single-player online check requirement, XBOne represents the very apex of bad DRM. Unlike SecuROM, you can only activate your game on your account, and then send it to another account once. That account will be tied to the game for eternity. SecuROM at least allows you to have five machines own the game and the ability to activate/deactivate machines. XBOne allows you to have one machine to own the game and the ability to send it once. Similarly, UPlay, Blizzard, and XBOne force you to connect online even though you are playing a single-player game. XBOne actually one ups this by forcing you to connect online every 24 hours even if you aren't playing a game at all. This is the epitome of bad DRM, DRM that is thoroughly abusive to consumers while providing the same inconvenience of physical games. Keep in mind that with the XBOne, you are still lugging your game collection through airport security and paying for online services you get for free on other platforms.



I was convinced for a long time that Sony’s PSN and Nintendo’s eShop were the worst that the gaming industry had to offer in terms of troublesome DRM. PSN’s horrifically slow servers, laggy store interface, annoying download quirks and abusive online pass we’re pretty bad to begin with. And the fact that the 3DS and Wii purchases were tied to the system (meaning I can’t play Pushmo on both my 3DS’s or Paper Mario 64 on both my Wii’s) was a real pain the bum. However, with the exception of the online pass, most of these are honest problems. Problems that both companies understand and try to fix. XBOne's policy is not an oversight or mistake. It is not something as simple as a technical problem or matter of simple misunderstanding. It is a carefully calculated plan to exploit and abuse the consumer.

Microsoft's new console is yet another sign of how driven the corporation is to control the consumer. While platforms like Steam offer DRM with the convenience of playing games on any of your devices or aggresive pricing for quality games, XBOne fails to deliver both. We are very fortunate to have many outlets for unique and impressive games this generation. If ultimately you do choose to own an XBOne, do so not because of some flimsy allegience to a souless corporation, but as an informed consumer. One who knows exactly what the alternatives are. 

 

Note: I have done my best to decode the mess and jargon that is the Xbox One policy page. However, I may have made mistakes in my interpretation. If you have found any mistakes, please let me know. Thanks.


It seems to me that your definition of good drm are the drm's that allow you to take advantage of the product and have it installed on multiple devices so you can give the game to others without them having to buy it.  That seems to be the gist of your argument yes?  I mean, it isnt a problem if you have multiple xbox's because the games are tied to your account and you can literally play them from any xbox.  You just cant take advantage of their drm system and give your games to others.

Honestly, Im not a fan of microsofts approach, especially the game lending aspect, but if they are going to do the drm system this is really the only way to do it without people taking advantage.  The drm is dissapointing, but I do like the idea of having all my games installed and accessible from any xbox, I am very ready to ditch the discs.  I switched to digital downloads towards the end of this gen anyway.  



theshonen8899 said:

 I call Steam good. Why? Because it's not perfect like Humble Bundle, but it's damn near close. I can get almost all of the convenience listed above, and feel almost none of the consequences of DRM. 

Thus, my definition of "good" DRM: when the advantages of a DRM service outweigh the disadvantages.

Paradox alert. Either Steam has "almost all of the convenience" of DRM-free, or it has "advantages" over it. Which is it?

Again. There is no good DRM. There are no advantages. DRM need not exist. It does nothing for us. It might be less painful, but why suffer at all? It can be a "perfect" world if only everyone who has a problem with DRM refuses to buy it.

Do you think Steam would persist with their DRM if people stopped buying it because of its DRM? We'd have the convenience of Steam AND no DRM in under a week I bet. It's people like you who are the problem. Who apologise and defend and say it's not so bad really.



Soleron said:

Paradox alert. Either Steam has "almost all of the convenience" of DRM-free, or it has "advantages" over it. Which is it?

Again. There is no good DRM. There are no advantages. DRM need not exist. It does nothing for us. It might be less painful, but why suffer at all? It can be a "perfect" world if only everyone who has a problem with DRM refuses to buy it.

Do you think Steam would persist with their DRM if people stopped buying it because of its DRM? We'd have the convenience of Steam AND no DRM in under a week I bet. It's people like you who are the problem. Who apologise and defend and say it's not so bad really.

The advantage is that is has almost all the convenicnce of DRM-free gaming. I'm not sure how this wasn't clear.

Good is a subjective term. Your idea of good is different from mine. That's fine, and it's not something worth arguing about.

DRM does not need to exist, but it does. Basically every digital distribution site with the exception of Humble Bundle and Good Old Games are DRM-free. Want a game on Amazon? DRM. Want a game on PSN? DRM. Want a game on Nintendo eShop? DRM.

I am not telling people to support DRM, I am telling them specifically to not support bad DRM, like the Xbox One. No, I don't think Steam is that bad, but that's not the point. The point is atrocities like SecuROM, UPlay, Blizzard DRM, and now Xbox One should be our biggest targets. Because they're horrible.



gergroy said:

It seems to me that your definition of good drm are the drm's that allow you to take advantage of the product and have it installed on multiple devices so you can give the game to others without them having to buy it.  That seems to be the gist of your argument yes?  I mean, it isnt a problem if you have multiple xbox's because the games are tied to your account and you can literally play them from any xbox.  You just cant take advantage of their drm system and give your games to others.

Again, from what I understand about XBOne's policy, you can NOT play from any Xbox. One user is allowed 10 XBOnes, with one "main" XBOne. If you play a game on a non-main XBOne, you will be subject to hourly online checks. What this means is that since it's a physical disk, you and yourfamily cannot play a single game simultaneously. It has all the disadvantages of physical gaming, with all the disadvantages of digital gaming. Is that clear?