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Forums - Sony - Sony Won't Release PS4 until 2014 and It Won't Be a Gimped Console.

Aielyn said:
EdHieron said:
Because if they don't, there's no reason for fans of the 90 million selling PS3 ( which is the least that it will sell) and its games to pick one up when it's not going to be able to recreate the same jaw dropping effects that games like Uncharted, Beyond:  Two Souls, and the Last of Us created in their time.

Your response confuses me.

PS1 sold over 100 million, and made a profit by the second year. PS2 sold over 150 million, and made a profit by the second year. PS3 will be lucky to make 90 million, and it took five years to have profit for that year, and still isn't even close to breaking even for the whole generation.

So what makes you think that a PS4 that is only mildly more powerful than the Wii U couldn't attract a huge number of fans, like the PS2 (which was weaker than all of its competitors) managed?

More importantly, what makes you think that number of fans is more important than profitability, when Sony is practically nearing bankruptcy?

 

Well, Sony may have lost billions of dollars this gen like you say.  However, the sheer number of consoles sold indicates that at some level Sony has been successful this gen.  90 Million consoles sold would probably put PS3 in the Top 10 Consoles saleswise of all time.  And for the most part those sales have been based upon giving gamers experiences like they've never had before this gen whether that be in their amazing exclusives like Uncharted and Heavy Rain or in the third party games they shared with the 360. 

It's kind of a two edge sword.  They could go the low power route you suggest and really be no better off than if they were to keep the PS3 on the market and keep supporting it heavily for the next five years, but they would lose the new audience they created this gen as they went off to look for consoles that did deliver far superior games to their aging PS3s.

Or they could step up to the plate lose a bit of money though if they played their cards right they could mitigate that by not being as willing to take as much of a loss as usual ie. putting out hardware at the $500 price range that would be far superior to Wii U's tech while using tech that would be reasonably priced for them versus what they lost with PS3 and swing for a new generation of games that would be as impressive for their time as the PS3 was for its time thus keeping the new audience they created on PS3.



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EdHieron said:
Well, Sony may have lost billions of dollars this gen like you say.  However, the sheer number of consoles sold indicates that at some level Sony has been successful this gen.  90 Million consoles sold would probably put PS3 in the Top 10 Consoles saleswise of all time.  And for the most part those sales have been based upon giving gamers experiences like they've never had before this gen whether that be in their amazing exclusives like Uncharted and Heavy Rain or in the third party games they shared with the 360.

If you're going to try to predict what Sony is going to do with the next generation, you need to think in terms of business, not like a gamer.

Sony could manage to ship 2 billion consoles, if they made the system cheap enough. That wouldn't be a success, though. They're a business, success is defined by profits, not by consoles sold.

Also, how the hell do you think that Sony would manage to put out a $500 system that is far more powerful than the Wii U without being far more expensive to manufacture? The Wii U is currently being sold at a loss at $300. The PS3, as far as just about every rumour and insider tip has said, cost somewhere in the vicinity of $800-$900 to manufacture, and it produced graphics not far beyond what the Xbox 360 could make, despite it being significantly cheaper to manufacture (as far as rumours go). So if we suppose that Sony wanted to limit the loss per console to, say, $50 (which is still a significant loss, by the way), they'd need to make a console that might be 2-3x the power of the Wii U. Maybe 4x if they skimp on other things like the controllers, etc.

I just can't see the business logic behind going for a high-powered system.



EdHieron said:

Because if they don't, there's no reason for fans of the 90 million selling PS3 ( which is the least that it will sell) and its games to pick one up when it's not going to be able to recreate the same jaw dropping effects that games like Uncharted, Beyond:  Two Souls, and the Last of Us created in their time.

They will buy it because the games were good beyond the graphic parts? are you telling me that 90 million fans only care about the graphical upgrade? If Sony puts the next Uncharted in their next PS4 even if it is not a great jump in power the fans will follow, because they like the narrative, the gameplay, the music and also pretty graphics even if those are only somewhat better than in their PS3.

If Last of Us is a succes and wins some fans, they will buy the PS4 if the next game of the saga comes out in it, not because the graphics are a billion times better, but because the games are new, interesting and fun.



Aielyn said:
EdHieron said:
Well, Sony may have lost billions of dollars this gen like you say.  However, the sheer number of consoles sold indicates that at some level Sony has been successful this gen.  90 Million consoles sold would probably put PS3 in the Top 10 Consoles saleswise of all time.  And for the most part those sales have been based upon giving gamers experiences like they've never had before this gen whether that be in their amazing exclusives like Uncharted and Heavy Rain or in the third party games they shared with the 360.

If you're going to try to predict what Sony is going to do with the next generation, you need to think in terms of business, not like a gamer.

Sony could manage to ship 2 billion consoles, if they made the system cheap enough. That wouldn't be a success, though. They're a business, success is defined by profits, not by consoles sold.

Also, how the hell do you think that Sony would manage to put out a $500 system that is far more powerful than the Wii U without being far more expensive to manufacture? The Wii U is currently being sold at a loss at $300. The PS3, as far as just about every rumour and insider tip has said, cost somewhere in the vicinity of $800-$900 to manufacture, and it produced graphics not far beyond what the Xbox 360 could make, despite it being significantly cheaper to manufacture (as far as rumours go). So if we suppose that Sony wanted to limit the loss per console to, say, $50 (which is still a significant loss, by the way), they'd need to make a console that might be 2-3x the power of the Wii U. Maybe 4x if they skimp on other things like the controllers, etc.

I just can't see the business logic behind going for a high-powered system.


The Playstation 3 has a sizeable audience that likes a certain type of game.  Do you see that audience sticking around for PS4 if it's not capable of delivering that type of game and some other console is?  I really don't see fans of Uncharted, The Last of Us, etc. being very interested in PS4 if its all Wii Sports clones and Party games.



Aielyn said:
EdHieron said:
Well, Sony may have lost billions of dollars this gen like you say.  However, the sheer number of consoles sold indicates that at some level Sony has been successful this gen.  90 Million consoles sold would probably put PS3 in the Top 10 Consoles saleswise of all time.  And for the most part those sales have been based upon giving gamers experiences like they've never had before this gen whether that be in their amazing exclusives like Uncharted and Heavy Rain or in the third party games they shared with the 360.

If you're going to try to predict what Sony is going to do with the next generation, you need to think in terms of business, not like a gamer.

Sony could manage to ship 2 billion consoles, if they made the system cheap enough. That wouldn't be a success, though. They're a business, success is defined by profits, not by consoles sold.

Also, how the hell do you think that Sony would manage to put out a $500 system that is far more powerful than the Wii U without being far more expensive to manufacture? The Wii U is currently being sold at a loss at $300. The PS3, as far as just about every rumour and insider tip has said, cost somewhere in the vicinity of $800-$900 to manufacture, and it produced graphics not far beyond what the Xbox 360 could make, despite it being significantly cheaper to manufacture (as far as rumours go). So if we suppose that Sony wanted to limit the loss per console to, say, $50 (which is still a significant loss, by the way), they'd need to make a console that might be 2-3x the power of the Wii U. Maybe 4x if they skimp on other things like the controllers, etc.

I just can't see the business logic behind going for a high-powered system.

they can sell at a small loss at $400 and $450 for 2 different SKUs.  They can do this and achieve 1080p 60fps with the necessary RAM for a very smooth interface and multitasking.  It will have been 7 years since PS3 was released and most of that cost was Blu-ray.  They don't have to spend over $100 of the system cost on a tablet with a bunch of peripherals on it so they can focus on internals and sell the system based on A. Improved graphics B. Better multitasking and UI C. PS+ which will most likely have some Gaikai integration with classics and D. Awesome library of AAA development studios and IPs.  That should be enough to get a lot of people on board considering they are going to sell 90 million PS3s starting at $600 with no system sellers in the first 2 years and starting significantly later than their main rival.




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EdHieron said:

The Playstation 3 has a sizeable audience that likes a certain type of game.  Do you see that audience sticking around for PS4 if it's not capable of delivering that type of game and some other console is?  I really don't see fans of Uncharted, The Last of Us, etc. being very interested in PS4 if its all Wii Sports clones and Party games.

Are you saying that the PS2 didn't have games equivalent to those? Or that Sony wouldn't make games like Uncharted and The Last of Us for the PS4 if it wasn't high-power? Or that video game consoles are only capable of EITHER having high-quality adventure and shooting titles OR Wii Sports clones and Party games?

Because as far as I can see, one of those must be what you're saying. And all of them are nonsense.

The fact of the matter is, the vast majority of gamers on ALL platforms go where the games they want are. Games like Uncharted will still be on the system, and therefore any fan of Uncharted will get the PS4 whether it's more powerful than 10 Wii Us put together or it's less powerful than the Wii U with some new control feature.

As for third parties, it's worth noting that, if Sony goes the similar-to-Wii-U route, there'll be a lot of PS4/WiiU cross-platform titles. And if my prediction is right, and Sony goes WiiU-like (within 2x the power) while MS goes for high power, Sony will have the graphically better version of most multiplatforms, because fewer multiplatform titles will be ported all the way up to the Xbox Successor.

 

So here's another way for you to think about it. MS is almost certain to go high-power. Nintendo has gone fairly low-power (as the new gen goes). MS has much more money to spend on their systems than Sony does, and thus Sony is unlikely to be able to beat MS in power without going bankrupt. This leaves Sony with two obvious choices:

1. Go high-power and relatively exorbitant price, making it the "worse" version of MS's console.

2. Go low-power and relatively modest price, moderately more powerful than Wii U, and be the "better" version of Nintendo's console.

I know which way I'd go, if I were the CEO of SCE.



It'll never happen probably, but I wish Sony would strike some deal with Intel whereby they could produce the PS4 on a 22nm fabrication process. Otherwise, I fear Microsoft with its next-gen console will blow away the competition because of its superior spec, something it can afford to do as any early losses will impact little on its financial standing.



EdHieron said:
Dodece said:
Excuse me while I point out the Elephant in the room. All the speculation in this thread thus far has revolved around what Sony needs to do to win, or what Sony needs to do to keep from losing. Maybe what we should be discussing is survival strategies. Whether some here want to believe it or not. Sony isn't the company it was a decade ago. They have lost money for five straight years, and that is in spite of selling large chunks of the company off, and actually using credit to cover operating expenses. Sony is neck deep in debt, and that isn't any kind of a exaggeration.

Meanwhile Microsoft and Nintendo aren't the companies they were five years ago in this space. While Sony got weaker they went, and got a hell of a lot stronger. Nintendo just came off of a home console that printed them money, and was a smash hit. Microsoft is coming off a very profitable console thanks to their subscription scheme, and more importantly they used all that money to fund expansion. While Sony on the whole has shed studios, exclusive franchises, and reputation. Microsoft has increased its number of studios. Created a number of franchises, and has only seen its reputation improve over the coarse of the previous generation.

The whole point of this diatribe is this. Sony is crippled, and its competitors are in peak physical conditioning. We are really talking about long odds. Sony could make a run at the prize, but rest assured that the exertion really could destroy them. There isn't any reason at all that Microsoft shouldn't just outspend Sony out of the gate. Microsoft has proven that it has no qualms about loss leading on its hardware, or about bribing third parties to get preferential treatment. Nintendo has opted for a positional advantage, and that means they will be protecting a lead. Rather then being forced to assail the lead. They get all the advantages that more time brings.

To me that means Sony has to be more pragmatic then it has been in the previous generation. Which means that they have to be looking for a happy medium. They need to look for a pace that will let them place without overexerting themselves in the process. Further more the longer they hang in there. The greater the chance for a turn around in their fortunes. What they really need is a strategy that will let them hang in there.

So if you are thinking about a 2013 launch. Then you have to expect a compromise on the hardware front. Either Sony has to tone back their capabilities to make a profit from the hardware, or they have to go off on a tangent. Whichever way is the most profitable out of the gate. In this scenario money gives Sony more time. If you are thinking of a 2014 launch then the hardware can be competitive at a profitable price point.

I honestly think Sony has some good options here. More then most of you seem to think. Once you think outside of terms of black and white, winning or losing. You can see how Sony can do well for itself without conquering this marketplace. It seems to me that too many of you keep thinking of Sony in terms of Giant on the Playground. When it is fact now the runt of the litter. They can't brute force things, and get their way anymore. They tried that last generation, and got the stuffing beat out of them.

Sony isn't the Champion anymore it is the Underdog. The sooner that little tidbit sinks in the better, and as the Underdog. Their path to success doesn't involve them playing the game the other guys are going to play. They have to opt for guile, patience, or surprise. Which is how Nintendo moved up. They knew they couldn't win a fight pound for pound against Sony and Microsoft. So they changed the equation. Anyway does anyone here have the slightest desire of discussing what Sony should do outside of playing only to win.


Yeah like outselling the competitors by 100,000 to 400,000 consoles each and every week doesn't mean anything when Sony's doing it.

If they're in such dire shape as you and the others like you point out, why don't they just say they're going out of business tomorrow and be done with the whole thing without going through the whole process of releasing a console that's beneath them?

And you use Nintendo as an example; however, Nintendo got the stuffing beat out of them two gens in a row not one like Sony ( and considering the fact that Playstation 3 is the best selling console out of the 3 for the last two years of the gen and beating the other consoles soundly every week now) why wouldn't they be interested in following a similar path next time?

Sony is a conglomerate, and since I doubt the word means anything to you I will expain it to you. A conglomerate is a company that has divisions that actually do business in a lot of unrelated industries. On the whole Sony's divisions that are doing badly are losing more money then the divisions that are doing well. Basically the console divisions profits are being spent covering losses, and the losses are still greater then the gains. Which is why Sony has been forced to offer up stock option bonds, and has had to delve into its financial reserves to cover the difference. The companies cash reserves are finite, and the company is hardly credit worthy. So Sony is finding it harder to borrow. So no it doesn't mean anything, and it has nothing to do with it being Sony. I would apply this same logic to any other company in this exact same position.

I suppose you would argue that people who have cancer should just roll over and die too. A company in dire straights isn't a company without hope. Maybe the company won't survive this situation, but then again maybe it will. It is entirely possible that Sony could fester five years, and suddenly come out with another break out hit. That turns into a cash generating machine. That said I think you need to grow up, and act like the age your profile says you are. I don't know what kind of world you are living in, but sometimes in this life companies just like people have to do things to get by. If your family is starving, and you have to crawl around in pig shit all day long to feed them. Then that is what you do. You don't give up until there isn't a single chance left. The management, employees, and the stock holders of Sony need this company to carry on. Throwing a shit fit, and walking away from their responsibilities isn't a option. They will keep trying until they find a way or run out of chances, and that is just how it is.

Nintendo lost the console wars, but that isn't the same as getting the stuffing beat out of them. The difference being that Nintendo didn't lose money trying. They sold their hardware at a profit, sold a lot of their own first party software, and had the best selling portable gaming device. Nintendo actually did quite well for itself. It is a object lesson in going with the flow. Nintendo didn't need to dominate the market as a whole to be successful. They just needed to cater to a market of loyal consumers. Which was large enough to sustain the company in the industry. Sony would do well to learn some of these lessons from Nintendo. That is how Nintendo wasn't trounced, and this is how Sony was.

Others have shown you the graphs that show you how much Sony lost. The past generation is the text book definition of a Pyrrhic victory. Those losses probably don't even take into account the seven hundred million dollars in loans that Sony has to pay interest on that it took out to fund production of the PS3, or the overhaul of the online security that had to happen, because of the whole jailbreaking fiasco. That saw Sony getting hacked every other day for about two whole months straight. The answer to your question would seem to be self apparent. Were Sony to eat such losses again the company would likely go bankrupt, but you can relax. Sony wouldn't bankrupt the company to salvage a PS4 doing that poorly. No they would just abandon the product.

Propaganda isn't a substitute for facts. I hope you understand that if you continue on this route. All you are going to get for your effort is pulverized. Think what you want about this community, but we aren't slouches. We know a great deal about what we are talking about, and many of us have been on this site since the start of this past generation. We have a real good grasp of what happened, when it happened, and why it happened. Sony basically created a hostage situation that it couldn't walk away from. They couldn't allow the PS3 to die like it ought to have, because it would have destroyed their chip business, their new media format, their software studios, and their home console line. They were pot committed, and they were going to lose a lot of money no matter which way they went.



VGKing said:
Nem said:
VGKing said:
Nem said:
If Sony doesnt release the Ps4 this year and Microsoft releases the 720, its game over for them. They have no choice here. Its either release this year or face bankrupcy.

NOPE.

I hope you were being sarcastic because if you really belive that you should probably seriously re-read that and see how ridiculous it sounds.


It doesnt sound ridiculous at all. Sony is in a difficult situation, and the PS3 did not have an easy first 5 years. With the Wii U dominating Japan and with Microsoft dominating the US, both unopposed for one year will leave Sony in a difficult situation in the market.

I dont know if you've been hiding under a rock, but Sony's credit rating has been cut to trash. This means that just to pay their debts Sony is gonna incur on an interest rate that should be about the 10% by now. That is a really difficult situation and why the Vita has not received a price cut. Sony needs money fast, they cannot afford any more mishaps or delays. If the PS4 fails to be competitive quickly, Sony will lose even more investor support since the Playstation is their most valuable brand at the moment. If that brand falters, theres nothing else preventing Sony from sinking like the Titanic.

 

If its any confort, i do wish that doesnt happen as i'd like to get a PS4 next gen. Believe me, Sony doesnt want to wait until next year.

Not sure if serious.....if a delayed PS3 release at $600 didn't destroy the Playstation brand, nothing will.
Yes, a delayed PS4 will make it an uphill battle in the 8th generation of consoles but Sony isn't only in the video games market. A failed PS4 released wouldn't bankrupt the company. That is just ridiculous.


What makes you think the Playstation brand didnt lose value with the Ps3? It most certainly did.



EdHieron said:
DanneSandin said:

Yes, it's been the best selling console for like a year or two - doesn't mean it'll catch up to Wii. And question is how much more will it sell than the 360? But none of that matters as Sony more or less haven't earned any money from the PS3. They lost a shit load of money in the beginning, and it's not until recently they've hit their pre-PS3 levels of money. That is not a sustainable business model.

The difference between x3ox and PS4 is that MS has a lot of money. They can afford to produce a console at $500 and sell it for $400 - Sony can't. This make MS extremely competitive and can under cut PS4's price point every step of the way. And one of the reasons the Europeans DIDN'T buy a Wii U is BECAUSE of it's high price tag. €350 is a lot in EU right now, so do you really expect Sony to be successful with a €500 system?! It's gonna bomb HARD if it releases with that price. Sony will be forced to cut the price and lose money on it, money they don't have.

It doesn't matter how you count the generations; we number them because it makes it easier for the industry (and the fans) to talk about them. No matter how you wanna see the generations, it's a fact we compare the Wii with PS360 - because they're competing against each other for out money. That's what matters. It doesn't matter whether or not you think of Wii U as a gen 7 or gen 8 machine; it will compete with PS720 for the market's money. THAT'S what matter.

The Wii is dead and isn't getting any more games; THAT'S why PS3 is gaining on it. Nintendo dropped that piece of machine as if it was poison, and it shows. A much more relevant comparison would be 3DS vs Vita. Tell me, how is that race going? Last I saw the numbers 3DS had sold over 10m in Japan while Vita is stuck somewhere around 500k. Seriously, that's a HUGE difference. Both consoles are being supported and are new entries to the market. Vita is much more powerful than 3DS, so how come 3DS is consistently outselling Vita if Japanese wants better graphics and power? Please explain that to me. 3DS is an inferior piece of technology, and yet it's selling like crazy. It's really and ass raping of the Vita on a scale I've never seen before.

Let's compare 3DS vs Vita with Wii U vs PS4:

Vita/PS4 has/will have superior technology

3DS/Wii U launched earlier

3DS/Wii U is cheaper

What does that tell you? PS4 will be a huge failure if Sony follows your advice.


Funny how stringently you Ninty fans defend your points yet underneath them is palpably present the fact that the one thing that frightens you the most is the notion of a coming Playstation console that would be as powerful in its time as PS3 was in its that sells like the PS2.

I'm trying to look at this as objectively as I can, and all I see is doom if Sony goes the route that you think they should follow. This has absolutely nothing to do with anything Nintendo. This is all about Sony. Giving the competition 1-2 years head start will be the fall of PlayStation.



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