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Forums - Politics - People (not all) have delusional beliefs that markets are magic...

You won't have people come out and admit this, but in modern society, there is this delusional belief that is nearly standard beliefs, that somehow, markets will magically provide what is needed.  Just throw your wishes out there, and every problem will be resolved by them.  This is implied and felt to be valid, even if not admitted.  It is an underlying assumption.  I was tempted to write about this but then held off until I ran into an article recently.   Anyhow, here are examples of what I am talking about:

* Employers have increasingly managed to make lifetime employment a thing of the past.  It is find the perfect worker, then hire them, and then dipose of them when you have a change in the markets.  You skimp on training and you don't invest.  You believe that the market will find the perfect candidate.  There is less of a feeling a need to carry the overhead of investing in a workforce, because of the costs.  And you try to do more with less, if needed.  The market will magically provide what is needed.  This view is what motivated to me to write on this, and is discussed in this article:

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2012/06/26/Why-Good-People-Cant-Find-Jobs.aspx#page1

* The entire basis of Keynsian economics is increasing demand.  Somehow, the belief is, if you throw enough money out there, EVERY problem will go away, because markets will supply what is needed.  

* Environmentalist, and those who are heavily green at all costs, believe that technology will appear in markets, and that there isn't a need for tradeoffs at all.  The belief is that you can ban everything, make everyone go solar, and it will work out.  The market will magically make what is needed to appear, because markets do this.

* There is beliefs that issues such as health care, can be solved by markets also.  Markets will produce their own supply of doctors, and other professionals, and there will be enough to go around.  It will work out.  

* The realm of self-help and self-improvement area is full of folly of things that generally don't work, being paid for and people getting rich off it, out of sheer desperation.  People believe they can go to a store and buy what is needed to fix every ill.  Apparently getting in shape, and good intimate relationships are a single purchase a way.  Same with family life and morals also.  The belief is you can buy you way to happiness, and markets can provide this.  I remember one line a book on dating and relationships, which made a comment that people gave more thought to what kind of refrigerator someone would want to buy, than to who they want as a partner, as if you can just go to a store and find someone.  Yes, heck, use match.com and you can mail order the perfect person.  Yes, the meet/meat market is one where you can just acquire the right person for you.  

These are just some of the areas that have people thinking that a market will magically provide what they want, when they want.  Everything from happiness to sustainable economics and full employment, and maximum profits and everything is yours for the picking.  Just wait and see.  There is always next year's model if this one year's isn't ideal.



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1) I don't get your first one... Lifetime employment is generally seen to be a bad thing for the average worker. Workers it is said should always be looking to jump from job to job.

2) If you did ban everything but solar... it probably would work out... eventually. I imagine that solar solutions would come around quite rapidly. They just wouldn't be the most efficient or best economically. Markets are actually quite good at making what's demanded appear rapidly.

3) Healthcare costs probably can't be solved by the free market for one main reason. Healthcare is the one area that most people won't ever want a "second class" option for. You need state funded healthcare to force second care options and force people to wait to treat certain things, test for certain things because on the margins people don't often benefit from it. In general it's a matter of cost vs choice.



Kasz216 said:
1) I don't get your first one... Lifetime employment is generally seen to be a bad thing for the average worker. Workers it is said should always be looking to jump from job to job.

2) If you did ban everything but solar... it probably would work out... eventually. I imagine that solar solutions would come around quite rapidly. They just wouldn't be the most efficient or best economically. Markets are actually quite good at making what's demanded appear rapidly.

3) Healthcare costs probably can't be solved by the free market for one main reason. Healthcare is the one area that most people won't ever want a "second class" option for. You need state funded healthcare to force second care options and force people to wait to treat certain things, test for certain things because on the margins people don't often benefit from it. In general it's a matter of cost vs choice.

I never a person has the same job the rest of their life.  What I was saying is that, excessive changing of employers, and where people don't have a prolonged period of employment with the same employer, is not good for the employee or the business.  Jumping from job to job isn't the same thing as jumping from employer to employer, is it?  Thing now, if you read the article, you will see what I am talking about.  Employers now have a magical belief that they don't need to train workers, and can go to the market and find what they need, and treat them as disposable.

The second point has to do with technology.  Among a list of available choices, markets can work well.  But when it comes to innovation and discovering, you can't just throw mor emoney and expect it to be there.  The whole thing with energy is that things are not cost effective now, and until the tech comes about to make it so, there is no guarantee it can be.

On healthcare, that is a concern.  The issue with a market is, for those who say just say let the market fix it is that people can die who would want anything, and no guarantee the market will meet that.  



richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
1) I don't get your first one... Lifetime employment is generally seen to be a bad thing for the average worker. Workers it is said should always be looking to jump from job to job.

2) If you did ban everything but solar... it probably would work out... eventually. I imagine that solar solutions would come around quite rapidly. They just wouldn't be the most efficient or best economically. Markets are actually quite good at making what's demanded appear rapidly.

3) Healthcare costs probably can't be solved by the free market for one main reason. Healthcare is the one area that most people won't ever want a "second class" option for. You need state funded healthcare to force second care options and force people to wait to treat certain things, test for certain things because on the margins people don't often benefit from it. In general it's a matter of cost vs choice.

I never a person has the same job the rest of their life.  What I was saying is that, excessive changing of employers, and where people don't have a prolonged period of employment with the same employer, is not good for the employee or the business.  Jumping from job to job isn't the same thing as jumping from employer to employer, is it?  Thing now, if you read the article, you will see what I am talking about.  Employers now have a magical belief that they don't need to train workers, and can go to the market and find what they need, and treat them as disposable.

The second point has to do with technology.  Among a list of available choices, markets can work well.  But when it comes to innovation and discovering, you can't just throw mor emoney and expect it to be there.  The whole thing with energy is that things are not cost effective now, and until the tech comes about to make it so, there is no guarantee it can be.

On healthcare, that is a concern.  The issue with a market is, for those who say just say let the market fix it is that people can die who would want anything, and no guarantee the market will meet that.  

1) Actually yes, I do mean jumping from employer to employer.  It's generally seen as a good thing... and the government has activly been trying to increase mobility from company to company.

That's seen as one of the biggest problems with the US' Employer based healthcare.   People are stuck with one employer there entire lives, rather then jumping which is seen as a ebenfit.

 

2) If you throw everything else away via government banning, it becomes cost effective, because it's the only option.

 

3) True, the government doesn't meet that either, that's the main benefit of government vs the USA's current health system.   Government can essentially force people to go without treatment... and does.



It does seem true about employment. Nobody wants to hire people, they want to hire skills, so they don't want anyone that lacks any single skill, but they also don't want to invest in your skills.

Of course, i've stated my opinion on employers.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
1) I don't get your first one... Lifetime employment is generally seen to be a bad thing for the average worker. Workers it is said should always be looking to jump from job to job.

2) If you did ban everything but solar... it probably would work out... eventually. I imagine that solar solutions would come around quite rapidly. They just wouldn't be the most efficient or best economically. Markets are actually quite good at making what's demanded appear rapidly.

3) Healthcare costs probably can't be solved by the free market for one main reason. Healthcare is the one area that most people won't ever want a "second class" option for. You need state funded healthcare to force second care options and force people to wait to treat certain things, test for certain things because on the margins people don't often benefit from it. In general it's a matter of cost vs choice.

I never a person has the same job the rest of their life.  What I was saying is that, excessive changing of employers, and where people don't have a prolonged period of employment with the same employer, is not good for the employee or the business.  Jumping from job to job isn't the same thing as jumping from employer to employer, is it?  Thing now, if you read the article, you will see what I am talking about.  Employers now have a magical belief that they don't need to train workers, and can go to the market and find what they need, and treat them as disposable.

The second point has to do with technology.  Among a list of available choices, markets can work well.  But when it comes to innovation and discovering, you can't just throw mor emoney and expect it to be there.  The whole thing with energy is that things are not cost effective now, and until the tech comes about to make it so, there is no guarantee it can be.

On healthcare, that is a concern.  The issue with a market is, for those who say just say let the market fix it is that people can die who would want anything, and no guarantee the market will meet that.  

1) Actually yes, I do mean jumping from employer to employer.  It's generally seen as a good thing... and the government has activly been trying to increase mobility from company to company.

That's seen as one of the biggest problems with the US' Employer based healthcare.   People are stuck with one employer there entire lives, rather then jumping which is seen as a ebenfit.

2) If you throw everything else away via government banning, it becomes cost effective, because it's the only option.

3) True, the government doesn't meet that either, that's the main benefit of government vs the USA's current health system.   Government can essentially force people to go without treatment... and does.

The problem, if you see the original link, is there costs with having human resources being in flux in a company.  Companies increasingly believe they can magically get anyone they want, and they set the bar so high, they can't find the skills.  They decreasingly bother investing in workers, and just "resource balance" their labor pool.  There is more to a business than a set of skills.  There are values in a company, and a degree of trust, that employees won't undermine company interests, covertly or overtly.  Reduce this level of trust, and you will end up making a company an increasingly legal one.  And if you lack stability, and hiccup, based on say false information, will drive employeers to the door.

And with this, you now also have very sluggish hiring.  There was a mentality among companies to downsize and then rehire on the fly.  It is JIT hiring.  They can't be assured the labor will be there at all for them.  As much as they want, it isn't there.  There was also research shown it is less expensive to develop talent than hire it from the outside.  HR worries about retention rates, but the fastest way to quickest short-term profits to do that.  And with this, is an economy that is sick now.