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Forums - General Discussion - The Logical Flaw of Prayers

DarthVolod on 09 June 2012

The way I see it is that praying is more an expression of loyalty and belief rather than an appeal for a favor or help. Why do soldiers salute a general? It is like an oath of fealty ... if you believe in God and you pray for aid for yourself and others it is a way of demonstrating that you put complete trust in God to lead you on to the right path in life. Obviously, an "all knowing" God would not need to have daily status reports and individualized pleas in order to guide people in the world. It is about declaring allegiance.

That is how I see it, but keep in mind that I am an atheist (but  was Christian before with an extensive history of Catholic schooling) so maybe  am wrong.



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appolose on 09 June 2012
Mr Khan said:
You keep getting back to Calvinism, don't you?


It is rather unfortunate that Calvinism seems to have had the lion's share of serious theologians.  Personally, I have found that the Arminian alternative can provide coherent solutions to a lot of problems, but, of late, Arminianism has been dominated by peole who seem to believe theology is a sin. 



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Andrespetmonkey on 09 June 2012
Jay520 said:
Andrespetmonkey said:

Jay520 said:
One of the reasons we pray to God is so that we can thank Him for the blessings he's done for us. In a word: Worship. Most people pray to worship & praise our Lord.

Now, you're talking about praying to ask for things. That does make sense. We are not praying to inform God of our troubles. He knows this already. We are praying to physically present ourselves as the small weaklings (cant think of a better word right now) that we are. When we get down on our knees and pray, it shows that we know that we are weak and are acknowledging the power of our Lord.

When we do this, we act our humbleness, and God likes this. Even if he knows we need help, we must still act on it. He knows we need him. That doesn't mean he'll always act. He wants us to put forth some form of action. To meet him halfway. And sometimes, all we have to do is humbly request help and acknowledge that he is the one who loves us and the one who can help us. And that's all the action he wants, sometimes.

 

So to put it plainly, God just wants you to kiss his arse and he'll help you? I don't understand why a benevolent being would want this, nor do I understand why a perfect being would want anything.

But let's say there's a perfectly rational reason as to why God would want this, if he really does answer prayer, why does practically every study on prayer show that it doesn't work? And why is practically every claim about an answered prayer something that could happen by chance, or even something that was bound to happen. You could get the worlds population to pray for an amputee's limb to grow back and it wouldn't happen.

 



I may be mistaken but it looks like you think respectfully asking for something = kissing arse. If this is your stance (and Please correct me if I'm wrong), then I'd have to disagree. 

But why would he need to be asked? Why does he want you to ask for it when he knows exactly what you want and how much you need it? How could this possibly benefit him in anyway? And if he's doing it for the benefit of us, rather than himself, then again, why? Assuming you're Christian, there are 6 billion people on this planet who aren't praying to what you pray to, so what happens to them? God knows they believe in and pray to a different God(s), but he stil expects people to ask for help when the vast majority don't even know who to ask or are asking the wrong deity? He doesn't even have the decency to tell these people that they're asking the wrong dude, not even a hint of his existence for 2000 years (and that's assuming Jesus is the son of God, and existed)

"if he really does answer prayer, why does practically every study on prayer show that it doesn't work?"

Good question. I'd say one reason is because: God works in mysterious ways. I'll leave this to the Iron Chariot. A person may have a problem and he'll pray for a particular item which he deems the solution to his problem, however, go may give the solution, just in a different manner. For example, a man may have a problem with depression because of paralysis. So he may pray to be able to walk. God may answer his prayer, but if so, it doesn't have to be by granting him the ability to walk. God will try to fix his problem. His problem wasn't paralysis, it was depression. So god my give this man wisdom. Wisdom that he doesn't need to walk to have joy. This wisdom will help eliminate the man's depression.

Firstly, if the source of his depression is paralysis, then healing his paralysis would indeed eliminate the man's depression. Secondly, this 'wisdom' is something most if not all amputees eventually find out on there own, people learn to deal with their disabilities. And thirdly, saying he's given the man wisdom instead of a limp is just very unconvincing, it reinforces the statement I made earlier about claims of answered prayers always conveniently being something that could happen anyway or was likely to happen.

You should link me to these 'studies' so I an get a better understanding of their system.

No prob - 

http://www.templeton.org/pdfs/articles/060331Reuters.pdf 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy_of_prayer#Third_party_studies 

"And why is practically every claim about an answered prayer something that could happen by chance, or even something that was bound to happen."

I see you said practically. Not all. Is this not evidence of God's influence? Keep in mind that I never claimed that God grants all prayers. Nor does he grants most of them. He may only grant a fraction of a fraction of the prayers he gets. So telling me that "most prayers don't work" means nothing.

key word = "claim" 

I'll change the question to "Why are there no answered prayers that could not of happened by chance confirmed by study and evidence?"


"You could get the worlds population to pray for an amputee's limb to grow back and it wouldn't happen."

Again, God fixes problems. This amputee may still be able to have a fulfilling life without that limb. And God could be the entity that shows the amputee his fulfilment.

Addressed.

Thanks for the reply, I know believers, particularly christians generally have a lot more people arguing agaisnt them than for them in a lot of religious threads on here, and I know that would be a pain in the arse for me.



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IIIIITHE1IIIII on 09 June 2012
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Which is addressed in the OP. If that is true, then praying becomes a tool; the tool to play God. The ability to change other humans destiny through your belief, and not only actions.

Your opinion on your own poverty does not change your situation. But God's opinion (and therefore actions) can. God will not give you godlike powers.


Keep in mind that I never mentioned praying for others. I don't think that makes sense either. I'm talking about a person praying for themselves.


Fixed. Only your and Gods actions will change your situation in both cases. Your opinion changes nothing.



IIIIITHE1IIIII on 09 June 2012
Mr Khan said:
You keep getting back to Calvinism, don't you?


Well, I don't really know what that is. I made a quick read on it though, and I disagree with their fifth point.

(also, I am an atheist)



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Jay520 on 09 June 2012

@Andre

"But why would he need to be asked? Why does he want you to ask for it when he knows exactly what you want and how much you need it? How could this possibly benefit him in anyway? And if he's doing it for the benefit of us, rather than himself, then again, why?"

As said earlier, the simple act of prayer is enough. Through prayer, you demonstrate your weakness and you acknowledge the Lord as the one who has the power to help you. Even though God already knows this, it's the ACT of you demonstrating this that God wants. He wants you to meet him halfway to help yourself.

" Assuming you're Christian, there are 6 billion people on this planet who aren't praying to what you pray to, so what happens to them? God knows they believe in and pray to a different God(s), but he stil expects people to ask for help when the vast majority don't even know who to ask or are asking the wrong deity? He doesn't even have the decency to tell these people that they're asking the wrong dude, not even a hint of his existence for 2000 years (and that's assuming Jesus is the son of God, and existed)"

You may not believe this, but the Christian spirit was once inside of every living person. So everyone had the oppurtunity to find our Lord. Some just chose to ignore Him.

"Firstly, if the source of his depression is paralysis, then healing his paralysis would indeed eliminate the man's depression."

Yes, it could. But again, that's not the only way to get rid of his depression. If God answers his prayers (again, IF), then he may have his own methods of providing a solution

"Secondly, this 'wisdom' is something most if not all amputees eventually find out on there own, people learn to deal with their disabilities."

And I'd argue that the Lord has helped a lot of these amputees learn to deal with their disabilities. Sometimes through prayer. Sometimes God helped without prayer. And sometimes they found it without God.

"And thirdly, saying he's given the man wisdom instead of a limb is just very unconvincing, it reinforces the statement I made earlier about claims of answered prayers always conveniently being something that could happen anyway or was likely to happen."

I'm not trying to convince you or prove anything. You asked a question and I gave you the answer. You can do with these facts what you want. Believe them or don't believe them. It's up to you.

"I'll change the question to "Why are there no answered prayers that could not of happened by chance confirmed by study and evidence?"

I personally know many people who have had there prayers answered (myself included). I know these people and I don't care much about sharing our experiences with any surveyers because we can't show proof. Like you said, the doubters will always believe that our experiences just happened by chance and God didn't affect anything. And that's fine. You have the right to believe whatever you believe. We know what really caused the changes.

- - -

I used to be like you, Andre. I understand you don't intentionally choose not to believe in Him. You just believe what your brain finds the most logical explanation, and you can't control that function. My advise would be to keep an open mind & heart. If you do this, then I'm sure you will find the truth and all will be clear.

PS: Sorry I can't quote, my phone is having memory issues.



Mr Khan on 09 June 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Mr Khan said:
You keep getting back to Calvinism, don't you?


Well, I don't really know what that is. I made a quick read on it though, and I disagree with their fifth point.

(also, I am an atheist)

Many of your basic questions on predestination seem to fit their precepts. I had assumed you were questioning from at least an agnostic perspective, but your theories seem to lead in that direction



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Jay520 on 09 June 2012

@ The1

"Your opinion on your own poverty does not change your situation. But God's opinion (and therefore actions) can. God will not give you godlike powers."

Again, and this applies to requesting things for yourself, sometimes asking for something is a factor in whether you deserve that thing or not. Believe it if you want, I can't scientifically prove it.



IIIIITHE1IIIII on 09 June 2012
Mr Khan said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Mr Khan said:
You keep getting back to Calvinism, don't you?


Well, I don't really know what that is. I made a quick read on it though, and I disagree with their fifth point.

(also, I am an atheist)

Many of your basic questions on predestination seem to fit their precepts. I had assumed you were questioning from at least an agnostic perspective, but your theories seem to lead in that direction


Yeah, I guess there are some (if not a lot of) similarities. I, myself, am a determinist, but as you can see I try to use Christian logic in my argumentation.



Andrespetmonkey on 09 June 2012

Jay520 said:

 As said earlier, the simple act of prayer is enough. Through prayer, you demonstrate your weakness and you acknowledge the Lord as the one who has the power to help you. Even though God already knows this, it's the ACT of you demonstrating this that God wants. He wants you to meet him halfway to help yourself.

Still doesn't answer my questions. @underlined Why does he want to meet you halfway? What is the point? 

You may not believe this, but the Christian spirit was once inside of every living person. So everyone had the oppurtunity to find our Lord. Some just chose to ignore Him.

I have 2 replies to this, the first is: You may not believe this, but Allah's spirit was once inside of every living person. So everyone had the oppurtunity to find our one true God. Some just chose to ignore Him.

The second is: I definitely don't believe this. I'm guessing this is a completely unsubstantiated claim, but if you know of any evidence, I'd like to have a look.

Yes, it could. But again, that's not the only way to get rid of his depression. If God answers his prayers (again, IF), then he may have his own methods of providing a solution

And I'd argue that the Lord has helped a lot of these amputees learn to deal with their disabilities. Sometimes through prayer. Sometimes God helped without prayer. And sometimes they found it without God.

@underlined You would argue that? Then the burden of proof is on you.

I'm not trying to convince you or prove anything. You asked a question and I gave you the answer. You can do with these facts what you want. Believe them or don't believe them. It's up to you.

That's a very liberal use of the word 'fact' you're using. Of course I don't believe them, that's why I challenged the statements you've made. The question here was "if he really does answer prayer, why does practically every study on prayer show that it doesn't work?" Your answer wasn't very convincing, based on the fact that it was based on the "God works in mysterious ways" argument, which is full of too many holes to be taken seriously. And the answer never explained why answered prayers that could not of happened by chance lack any evidence.

I personally know many people who have had there prayers answered (myself included). I know these people and I don't care much about sharing our experiences with any surveyers because we can't show proof. Like you said, the doubters will always believe that our experiences just happened by chance and God didn't affect anything. And that's fine. You have the right to believe whatever you believe. We know what really caused the changes.

@underlined Right, as do many Muslims know what caused their changes, as do Hindus know what caused their changes, as do Scientologists know what caused their changes... etc. Certainly didn't lead them to Christianity. The argument from personal experience holds no weight. 

- - -

I used to be like you, Andre. I understand you don't intentionally choose not to believe in Him. You just believe what your brain finds the most logical explanation, and you can't control that function. My advise would be to keep an open mind & heart. If you do this, then I'm sure you will find the truth and all will be clear.

I used to be like you to, and as a result of keeping an open mind & heart I'm in the position I'm in now. Do I know the truth of the universe? Not with any certainty, not at all. But it's a hell of a lot clearer than what it used to be.

PS: Sorry I can't quote, my phone is having memory issues.





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