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Forums - General Discussion - The Logical Flaw of Prayers

IIIIITHE1IIIII on 09 June 2012
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Which is adressed in my note in the OP. This thread is about prayers where you ask for things.


If this thread is only about certain types of prayers, then why does your title simply say prayers, in general, makes no sense? Your title shows that you are talking about prayers in general, not a certain kind. Your title should specify what your thread is focused on: Prayers where you ask for things, not all prayers.

The title is supposed to be informative and simple. What is not explained in the title is explained firstly in the OP.



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appolose on 09 June 2012
Jay520 said:
appolose said:
The theological system I've come up with to accommodate both God's attributes and a prayer that can result in changes relies on Bible verses that say that the God in the Bible wants His followers to ask for good things but will not give or do them unless asked. That seems imply that this God gives some measure of autonomy or even authority to those who can pray. If so, then that would allow for God to retain those attributes above stated and for prayer to affect a change at the same time.


Excellent post! and articulates my thoughts much better than I could have.


Well thank you!  But it came across as articulate?  I thought I was writing horribly. Well, that's a relief.



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Jay520 on 09 June 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Which proves my point: Your opinion won't change God's will.


It could. It shows that you accept that you need help and that you look to Him for the help. Even if he knows you need the help, simply acknowledging Him as being the one who can help you is all that matters to Him. He may be ready to help you, he's just waiting for you to show some initiative by personally speaking to Him.

How about saying: "Give me what I deserve. Your will is flawless so you know best. I fully trust your opinion." (also: Saying "You may give me what I deserve." does not make any sense. God cannot give you something that you don't deserve as that would make Him unjust)

 

Asking for help won't make you a better person. It makes you a demanding person who questions God's will. And God wouldn't want you to work against His will.



Asking for help shows that you know that God is the one who can help and it shows that you are putting forth an effort to connect with God. That effort can sometimes be the difference between deserving something & not deserving something.

Jay520 on 09 June 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Which proves my point: Your opinion won't change God's will.


It could. It shows that you accept that you need help and that you look to Him for the help. Even if he knows you need the help, simply acknowledging Him as being the one who can help you is all that matters to Him. He may be ready to help you, he's just waiting for you to show some initiative by personally speaking to Him.

How about saying: "Give me what I deserve. Your will is flawless so you know best. I fully trust your opinion." (also: Saying "You may give me what I deserve." does not make any sense. God cannot give you something that you don't deserve as that would make Him unjust)

 

Asking for help won't make you a better person. It makes you a demanding person who questions God's will. And God wouldn't want you to work against His will.



Asking for help shows that you know that God is the one who can help and it shows that you are putting forth an effort to connect with God. That effort can sometimes be the difference between deserving something & not deserving something.

Jay520 on 09 June 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Which is adressed in my note in the OP. This thread is about prayers where you ask for things.


If this thread is only about certain types of prayers, then why does your title simply say prayers, in general, makes no sense? Your title shows that you are talking about prayers in general, not a certain kind. Your title should specify what your thread is focused on: Prayers where you ask for things, not all prayers.

The title is supposed to be informative and simple. What is not explained in the title is explained firstly in the OP.



While a title should be informative and simple, it should not be misleading. The title talks about all prayers. This does not match the thread.

That's like me making a thread title that says "Athiests are stupid". However, my OP is only talking about athiests with IQs of less than 80. That would be misleading.

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IIIIITHE1IIIII on 09 June 2012
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

How about saying: "Give me what I deserve. Your will is flawless so you know best. I fully trust your opinion." (also: Saying "You may give me what I deserve." does not make any sense. God cannot give you something that you don't deserve as that would make Him unjust)

 

Asking for help won't make you a better person. It makes you a demanding person who questions God's will. And God wouldn't want you to work against His will.


Asking for help shows that you know that God is the one who can help and it shows that you are putting forth an effort to connect with God. That effort can sometimes be the difference between deserving something & not deserving something.


No, it shows that you are unhappy with your situation and would like a change. But the problem is that you don't know what situation you deserve, yet, a request would suggest that you do so. It's like asking God to send an evil person to Hell, even though only God knows if he/she truly deserves it.



Andrespetmonkey on 09 June 2012

Jay520 said:
One of the reasons we pray to God is so that we can thank Him for the blessings he's done for us. In a word: Worship. Most people pray to worship & praise our Lord.

Now, you're talking about praying to ask for things. That does make sense. We are not praying to inform God of our troubles. He knows this already. We are praying to physically present ourselves as the small weaklings (cant think of a better word right now) that we are. When we get down on our knees and pray, it shows that we know that we are weak and are acknowledging the power of our Lord.

When we do this, we act our humbleness, and God likes this. Even if he knows we need help, we must still act on it. He knows we need him. That doesn't mean he'll always act. He wants us to put forth some form of action. To meet him halfway. And sometimes, all we have to do is humbly request help and acknowledge that he is the one who loves us and the one who can help us. And that's all the action he wants, sometimes.

So to put it plainly, God just wants you to kiss his arse and he'll help you? I don't understand why a benevolent being would want this, nor do I understand why a perfect being would want anything.

But let's say there's a perfectly rational reason as to why God would want this, if he really does answer prayer, why does practically every study on prayer show that it doesn't work? And why is practically every claim about an answered prayer something that could happen by chance, or even something that was bound to happen. You could get the worlds population to pray for an amputee's limb to grow back and it wouldn't happen.



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IIIIITHE1IIIII on 09 June 2012
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

The title is supposed to be informative and simple. What is not explained in the title is explained firstly in the OP.


While a title should be informative and simple, it should not be misleading. The title talks about all prayers. This does not match the thread.

That's like me making a thread title that says "Athiests are stupid". However, my OP is only talking about athiests with IQs of less than 80. That would be misleading.


But you must find a balance between information and simplicity. Changing the title to: "Demanding prayers makes no sense" would also be misleading, and making it even more accurate than that would make it horribly long.

Instead, I chose to leave some information out, and then clarified the rest in my OP.



Jay520 on 09 June 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

How about saying: "Give me what I deserve. Your will is flawless so you know best. I fully trust your opinion." (also: Saying "You may give me what I deserve." does not make any sense. God cannot give you something that you don't deserve as that would make Him unjust)

 

Asking for help won't make you a better person. It makes you a demanding person who questions God's will. And God wouldn't want you to work against His will.


Asking for help shows that you know that God is the one who can help and it shows that you are putting forth an effort to connect with God. That effort can sometimes be the difference between deserving something & not deserving something.


No, it shows that you are unhappy with your situation and would like a change. But the problem is that you don't know what situation you deserve, yet, a request would suggest that you do so. It's like asking God to send an evil person to Hell, even though only God knows if he/she truly deserves it.



We're going cricles now. I'll just leave you with this last post unless you want more:

Asking for something through prayer is a direct & personal approach to contact God. Do you agree? If you disagree, let me know and I'll explain why latter. If you agree, then keep reading. God appreciates this effort and this could be the effort that influences what a person deserves. Therefore, a prayer can cause change. But not because you are forcing God to do something. And not because you're informing him of new information. God simply likes act of prayer (for reasons already mentioned).

Jay520 on 09 June 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

The title is supposed to be informative and simple. What is not explained in the title is explained firstly in the OP.


While a title should be informative and simple, it should not be misleading. The title talks about all prayers. This does not match the thread.

That's like me making a thread title that says "Athiests are stupid". However, my OP is only talking about athiests with IQs of less than 80. That would be misleading.


But you must find a balance between information and simplicity. Changing the title to: "Demanding prayers makes no sense" would also be misleading, and making it even more accurate than that would make it horribly long.

Instead, I chose to leave some information out, and then clarified the rest in my OP.



How would "Demanding prayers make no sense" be misleading? Are you not arguing that the idea of prayers with demands are flawed? And please, give me this title which you think would be "horribly long".