By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - The Logical Flaw of Prayers

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jay520 said:
And you still haven't challenged the idea of prayer being used as a form of worship. I assume, you accept this idea as making sense? In which case, I kindly ask you to edit your title to a more appropriate choice of words.


No, it does not make sense to worship God by asking Him to act in a certain way.

The title stays.

Amen.

It is a word woth studying to know what it means.  It would explain further why prayer is relevant here.  Well, at least it would be worth studying further, than the rehashing of a thread you did on here about God's will being a fixed thing, like a Deist, when it was actually a ploy to get people to give up religion completely. 



Around the Network
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jay520 said:
And you still haven't challenged the idea of prayer being used as a form of worship. I assume, you accept this idea as making sense? In which case, I kindly ask you to edit your title to a more appropriate choice of words.


No, it does not make sense to worship God by asking Him to act in a certain way.

The title stays.



That's not what I meant by worshipping. Worshipping isn't asking for things. For example, worshipping can just be giving thanks to the Lord for all that He's done for us, or it can be celebrating his existence (which is the same as thanking him, I guess). Prayer does make sense as a way to thank God for our blessings.

Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Yes, it is completely humble as it suggests that God's opinion is flawless. And on top of that, it wouldn't make any sense to ask God to act against His own opinion, or for God to act against it...



To be honest, you really are arguing meaningless details. A person ask for something, with the hope that they deserve it. Or they can just tell God to make the correct choice. I don't think it matters, after I thought about it.


Which proves my point: Your opinion won't change God's will.



Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:


No, it does not make sense to worship God by asking Him to act in a certain way.

The title stays.



That's not what I meant by worshipping. Worshipping isn't asking for things. For example, worshipping can just be giving thanks to the Lord for all that He's done for us, or it can be celebrating his existence (which is the same as thanking him, I guess). Prayer does make sense as a way to thank God for our blessings.

Which is adressed in my note in the OP. This thread is about prayers where you ask for things.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Yes, it is completely humble as it suggests that God's opinion is flawless. And on top of that, it wouldn't make any sense to ask God to act against His own opinion, or for God to act against it...



To be honest, you really are arguing meaningless details. A person ask for something, with the hope that they deserve it. Or they can just tell God to make the correct choice. I don't think it matters, after I thought about it.


Which proves my point: Your opinion won't change God's will.



It could. It shows that you accept that you need help and that you look to Him for the help. Even if he knows you need the help, simply acknowledging Him as being the one who can help you is all that matters to Him. He may be ready to help you, he's just waiting for you to show some initiative by personally speaking to Him.

Around the Network

As a Christian who believes the Bible, I've had to try to derive the implications of several of its sayings to make cohesive theologies concerning various topics. With prayer, the Bible does have (of course) several sayings about what one should use it for and what it does. While many users above have pointed out that prayer can help the individual change himself or act as praise and worship, the Bible does seem to imply that requests can be granted, and, furthermore, if they hadn't been asked, they wouldn't have been granted.

The Bible also claims an omniscient. omnipotent, and omnibenevolent God, which, for me, returns the subject of prayer to the problem posed in the OP: if God knows everything and can do everything, wouldn't He know beforehand about the requests I would make and decide whether or not to do them anyway without my asking?

The theological system I've come up with to accommodate both God's attributes and a prayer that can result in changes relies on Bible verses that say that the God in the Bible wants His followers to ask for good things but will not give or do them unless asked. That seems imply that this God gives some measure of autonomy or even authority to those who can pray. If so, then that would allow for God to retain those attributes above stated and for prayer to affect a change at the same time.

That was dreadfully ineloquent; ask for clarification if needed.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz

I don't know, I don't really do any of that stuff, and I don't believe in the western description of what a God is(it's quiet frankly completely ridiculous from an actual logical perspective considering how many cultures there are that believe in different things yet nobody surly knows other than saying they have fucking "faith" taught by previous generations, it's almost like a big ass cult), and I get by just fine. My perception is that shit happens, praying doesn't really do shit, miracles are chances and made possible by humans. Why base your belief on something that's based on hearsay from human beings from so long ago?

It's too much politics BS involved in the grand scheme of thing, JUST BE NICE TO PEOPLE! What a concept right?



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:


No, it does not make sense to worship God by asking Him to act in a certain way.

The title stays.



That's not what I meant by worshipping. Worshipping isn't asking for things. For example, worshipping can just be giving thanks to the Lord for all that He's done for us, or it can be celebrating his existence (which is the same as thanking him, I guess). Prayer does make sense as a way to thank God for our blessings.

Which is adressed in my note in the OP. This thread is about prayers where you ask for things.



If this thread is only about certain types of prayers, then why does your title simply say prayers, in general, makes no sense? Your title shows that you are talking about prayers in general, not a certain kind. Your title should specify what your thread is focused on: Prayers where you ask for things, not all prayers.

Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Which proves my point: Your opinion won't change God's will.



It could. It shows that you accept that you need help and that you look to Him for the help. Even if he knows you need the help, simply acknowledging Him as being the one who can help you is all that matters to Him. He may be ready to help you, he's just waiting for you to show some initiative by personally speaking to Him.

How about saying: "Give me what I deserve. Your will is flawless so you know best. I fully trust your opinion." (also: Saying "You may give me what I deserve." does not make any sense. God cannot give you something that you don't deserve as that would make Him unjust)

 

Asking for help won't make you a better person. It makes you a demanding person who questions God's will. And God wouldn't want you to work against His will.



appolose said:
The theological system I've come up with to accommodate both God's attributes and a prayer that can result in changes relies on Bible verses that say that the God in the Bible wants His followers to ask for good things but will not give or do them unless asked. That seems imply that this God gives some measure of autonomy or even authority to those who can pray. If so, then that would allow for God to retain those attributes above stated and for prayer to affect a change at the same time.



Excellent post! and articulates my thoughts much better than I could have.