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Forums - Politics - WWII Thread (How come the West never gives the Soviets the credit they deserve)

mrstickball said:
FattyDingDong said:
mrstickball said:

I'd say its generally the fact that Americans don't have access to the kind of information about the war in the East as they do any other theater, maybe sans the Indochina and Chinese front. I mean, I can mention the Soviet's Manchuko campaign to my dad who loves WW2 stuff, and he had no idea.

I'd blame the education system that is generally America-centric (in the US at least), and the general stupidity of kids being taught history. We mostly only learn about our sacrifice, much as probably the Soviets only learned about WWII through the lens of the Great Patriotic war.

How many Russian-made movies and documentaries are available on WW2? I try to find as many as I can, and the sad thing is that the Germans made more about the war (being essentuially banned from doing such for decades), than the Russians did. They only made Come and See and Brest Fortress vs. literally hundreds of WW2 movies made from the American and British side. So again, most only have had the chance to learn of the Western campaigns in Africa, D-Day and so on, and the Pacific War. Its not fair, FWIW, because the Soviets did do a lot to secure an allied victory. I try to study as much as I can from the Soviet side, because its very intriguing.

I do think the whole Cold War aspect does play in - after the war, I am sure few people wanted to portray the Soviets as a wonderful savior during the war, when we hadn't yet had detente.


Thanks my friend, you and i have the same views i wish all people knew as much you do. and did you see my comment above where i mentioned that 1/3  of Belarussia's population was gone due to the Nazis? i was refering to "Come and See" which is historicly accurate movie. I wish everyone sees that great movie. 


Right. Everyone on that front was severely effected by the war. I believe something like 80% of all military-aged men in the Soviet Union were involved in the war. Crazy stuff. I've been trying to get a good copy of Come and See, but I have yet to find one. My brother and I are huge fans of foreign-made war movies like Brest Fortress (fantastic!), Downfall, 71 Into the Fire and so on. Great stuff out there, but hard to find, from at least my experience.

And a lot of that, again, has to do with film industries worldwide. As they get larger around the world, I imagine more will be made to educate people on the sacrifices of non-Western parties in the war.

ACtually there are lots of Soviet made movies about ww2 but they are not popular enough. "Zvezda" aka "Star" is another great ww2 movie.  I've noticed that most of the Russian made movies are low budget which is a shame because bigger battle occured in the Eastern Front.  There is an American made movie called "Enemy At The Gates" which isn't that historicly accurate, i feel like the movie focused more on Russian Officers shooting their own men than the actual battle.



I trust no one, not even myself.

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FattyDingDong said:
mrstickball said:
FattyDingDong said:
mrstickball said:

I'd say its generally the fact that Americans don't have access to the kind of information about the war in the East as they do any other theater, maybe sans the Indochina and Chinese front. I mean, I can mention the Soviet's Manchuko campaign to my dad who loves WW2 stuff, and he had no idea.

I'd blame the education system that is generally America-centric (in the US at least), and the general stupidity of kids being taught history. We mostly only learn about our sacrifice, much as probably the Soviets only learned about WWII through the lens of the Great Patriotic war.

How many Russian-made movies and documentaries are available on WW2? I try to find as many as I can, and the sad thing is that the Germans made more about the war (being essentuially banned from doing such for decades), than the Russians did. They only made Come and See and Brest Fortress vs. literally hundreds of WW2 movies made from the American and British side. So again, most only have had the chance to learn of the Western campaigns in Africa, D-Day and so on, and the Pacific War. Its not fair, FWIW, because the Soviets did do a lot to secure an allied victory. I try to study as much as I can from the Soviet side, because its very intriguing.

I do think the whole Cold War aspect does play in - after the war, I am sure few people wanted to portray the Soviets as a wonderful savior during the war, when we hadn't yet had detente.


Thanks my friend, you and i have the same views i wish all people knew as much you do. and did you see my comment above where i mentioned that 1/3  of Belarussia's population was gone due to the Nazis? i was refering to "Come and See" which is historicly accurate movie. I wish everyone sees that great movie. 


Right. Everyone on that front was severely effected by the war. I believe something like 80% of all military-aged men in the Soviet Union were involved in the war. Crazy stuff. I've been trying to get a good copy of Come and See, but I have yet to find one. My brother and I are huge fans of foreign-made war movies like Brest Fortress (fantastic!), Downfall, 71 Into the Fire and so on. Great stuff out there, but hard to find, from at least my experience.

And a lot of that, again, has to do with film industries worldwide. As they get larger around the world, I imagine more will be made to educate people on the sacrifices of non-Western parties in the war.

ACtually there are lots of Soviet made movies about ww2 but they are not popular enough. "Zvezda" aka "Star" is another great ww2 movie.  I've noticed that most of the Russian made movies are low budget which is a shame because bigger battles occured in the Eastern Front.  There is an American made movie called "Enemy At The Gates" which isn't that historicly accurate, i feel like the movie focuses more on Russian Officers shooting their own men.. than the actual battle.





I trust no one, not even myself.

The Soviet army played a very significant role in the War. I think in terms of importance to the end of the war the Battle of Stalingrad is on par with the Battle of Britain - both marked the turning of a front against the Germans. The Soviet people also suffered hugely during the war, the only people to suffer more were the people who the Holocaust was aimed at. Mind you a fairly large amount of the suffering of the Soviet people (not only during but also before and after the war) can be laid at the feet of Stalin, who was as much of an evil son-of-a-bitch as Hitler.



mrstickball said:


Right. Everyone on that front was severely effected by the war. I believe something like 80% of all military-aged men in the Soviet Union were involved in the war. Crazy stuff. I've been trying to get a good copy of Come and See, but I have yet to find one. My brother and I are huge fans of foreign-made war movies like Brest Fortress (fantastic!), Downfall, 71 Into the Fire and so on. Great stuff out there, but hard to find, from at least my experience.

like this?



I said not too long ago in some other thread this same thing. The Soviets were the main force behind the allied victory. The USA's role is overrated by Hollywood movies, WWII would have been won regardless of their involvement. They were wary of Russia's influence in Europe and decided to intervene (hence the Marshal Plan, too, they needed Western Europe to side with the US). The UK (they were fighting alone against occupied Europe at some point!) and Russia (they sacrificed millions of lives to inflict the most damage to Germany than any other nation) were the true heroes IMO. It's a pity Russian people had to defend their country against an asshole (Hitler) so another asshole (Stalin) could fuck them over.



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The issue is more that most Americans don't know much about World War II outside of our role in it, but that's down to our poor knowledge of history and geography



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Troll_Whisperer said:
I said not too long ago in some other thread this same thing. The Soviets were the main force behind the allied victory. The USA's role is overrated by Hollywood movies, WWII would have been won regardless of their involvement. They were wary of Russia's influence in Europe and decided to intervene (hence the Marshal Plan, too, they needed Western Europe to side with the US). The UK (they were fighting alone against occupied Europe at some point!) and Russia (they sacrificed millions of lives to inflict the most damage to Germany than any other nation) were the true heroes IMO. It's a pity Russian people had to defend their country against an asshole (Hitler) so another asshole (Stalin) could fuck them over.

The worst of Stalin's influence was over by that point. The most irrational stages of the purges came in the late 30s, mostly when they purged pretty much everyone who had been around in 1917, as well as masses of others for next to no reason



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Troll_Whisperer said:
I said not too long ago in some other thread this same thing. The Soviets were the main force behind the allied victory. The USA's role is overrated by Hollywood movies, WWII would have been won regardless of their involvement. They were wary of Russia's influence in Europe and decided to intervene (hence the Marshal Plan, too, they needed Western Europe to side with the US). The UK (they were fighting alone against occupied Europe at some point!) and Russia (they sacrificed millions of lives to inflict the most damage to Germany than any other nation) were the true heroes IMO. It's a pity Russian people had to defend their country against an asshole (Hitler) so another asshole (Stalin) could fuck them over.

Very wrong. The US was integral in winning the war for the allies. No allied nation provided more than the other.

If it weren't for US involvment with giving the Soviets supplies through lend-lease, the Soviets would have lost quickly. That is not opinion. That is substantiated fact from the mouth of the Soviet General Gregory Zhukov. Had it not been for that, the Soviets would have lost to the Germans, ending the war.

Additionally, you have the US which singlehandedly turned the tide of the Pacific theater. Remember that one? The war on that front consumed a significant amount of men and materiel for the British, as they were defending their colonies. Had we not of interviened there, the Japanese would have likely been able to crush the Chinese, and turn their attention west to India and possibly Siberia, creating a two-front war for the Soviets, allowing them to lose in yet another scenario.

Do some people overstate what the US did? Probably. Every side turned the tide. Every major allied player contributed significantly to the effort. Remove any one from the picture, and the Axis would have won.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

mrstickball said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
I said not too long ago in some other thread this same thing. The Soviets were the main force behind the allied victory. The USA's role is overrated by Hollywood movies, WWII would have been won regardless of their involvement. They were wary of Russia's influence in Europe and decided to intervene (hence the Marshal Plan, too, they needed Western Europe to side with the US). The UK (they were fighting alone against occupied Europe at some point!) and Russia (they sacrificed millions of lives to inflict the most damage to Germany than any other nation) were the true heroes IMO. It's a pity Russian people had to defend their country against an asshole (Hitler) so another asshole (Stalin) could fuck them over.

Very wrong. The US was integral in winning the war for the allies. No allied nation provided more than the other.

If it weren't for US involvment with giving the Soviets supplies through lend-lease, the Soviets would have lost quickly. That is not opinion. That is substantiated fact from the mouth of the Soviet General Gregory Zhukov. Had it not been for that, the Soviets would have lost to the Germans, ending the war.

Additionally, you have the US which singlehandedly turned the tide of the Pacific theater. Remember that one? The war on that front consumed a significant amount of men and materiel for the British, as they were defending their colonies. Had we not of interviened there, the Japanese would have likely been able to crush the Chinese, and turn their attention west to India and possibly Siberia, creating a two-front war for the Soviets, allowing them to lose in yet another scenario.

Do some people overstate what the US did? Probably. Every side turned the tide. Every major allied player contributed significantly to the effort. Remove any one from the picture, and the Axis would have won.


The USA in terms of military engagement reduced the length of the war, but they did not win it. The war was really won at Stalingrad and the Battle for Britain. The Pacific theatre and the American involvement on the Western front didn't turn the tides, they just sped up the inevitable.

It is true however that in terms of supply of materiel America was extremely important to the war effort on both fronts, the allies on both fronts were strapped for cash.

My overall opinion is that America made a large contribution to the war effort (though I personally think that military intervention against such an evil should have come much sooner, not just after America itself was attacked) but certainly sacrificed the least of the three major allied powers during the war, largely because they were situated away from the fighting unlike the USSR and the UK.

 

I may be partially biased against America though simply because of my hate of how much American films underplay all of the other allies sacrifices in WWII, most of them make it look like there were only Americans involved.



mrstickball said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
I said not too long ago in some other thread this same thing. The Soviets were the main force behind the allied victory. The USA's role is overrated by Hollywood movies, WWII would have been won regardless of their involvement. They were wary of Russia's influence in Europe and decided to intervene (hence the Marshal Plan, too, they needed Western Europe to side with the US). The UK (they were fighting alone against occupied Europe at some point!) and Russia (they sacrificed millions of lives to inflict the most damage to Germany than any other nation) were the true heroes IMO. It's a pity Russian people had to defend their country against an asshole (Hitler) so another asshole (Stalin) could fuck them over.

Very wrong. The US was integral in winning the war for the allies. No allied nation provided more than the other.

If it weren't for US involvment with giving the Soviets supplies through lend-lease, the Soviets would have lost quickly. That is not opinion. That is substantiated fact from the mouth of the Soviet General Gregory Zhukov. Had it not been for that, the Soviets would have lost to the Germans, ending the war.

Additionally, you have the US which singlehandedly turned the tide of the Pacific theater. Remember that one? The war on that front consumed a significant amount of men and materiel for the British, as they were defending their colonies. Had we not of interviened there, the Japanese would have likely been able to crush the Chinese, and turn their attention west to India and possibly Siberia, creating a two-front war for the Soviets, allowing them to lose in yet another scenario.

Do some people overstate what the US did? Probably. Every side turned the tide. Every major allied player contributed significantly to the effort. Remove any one from the picture, and the Axis would have won.

yes that is true each nation played a big role in ww2, British were the ones who opposed nazism ever since ww2 had started. Stalin was an idiot for trusting Hitler. But you got something wrong, Americans did not ship enough supplies for the Soviets. Yes it helped but not by much. T-34 Russian tank was made in Russia, Machine Guns/rifles were made in Russia, Aircrafts were produced in Russia, and Katyusha artilery was also made in Russia.  Americans did however provide lots of Jeeps and trucks.



I trust no one, not even myself.