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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Wii U vs PS4 vs Xbox One FULL SPECS (January 24, 2014)

Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
D-Joe said:
BlueFalcon said:

I posted this in another thread but I thought it's worth of consideration in this thread too.

DDR3 of Xbox 720 vs. GDDR5 of PS4 - the impact on the GPU performance.

 

If you take the rumored level of performance in the Xbox 720 that is estimated at around HD7770Ghz in floating point, recall that this GPU normally has 4500mhz GDDR5 over 128-bit bus feeding it. Replace GDDR5 with DDR3-2133mhz over the same 128-bit bus and your GPU's memory bandwidth will fall from 72GB/sec to just 34 GB/sec!!! Guess what happens? Your GPU's performance will fall 40-50% with this reduction in memory bandwidth.

This likely explains why MS is going to use eSRAM/eDRAM for the GPU because 8GB of DDR3 is going to be shared with the GPU (i.e., the GPU is going to be severely memory bandwidth bottlenecked).

In simplest terms, you can take a 1.2Tflop GPU and compare it to a 1.84Tflop GPU on the same GPU architecture, but if the 1st GPU's memory bandwidth just got neutured by DDR3, the performance of that GPU will drop like a rock! Effectively, you are no longer comparing a 1.2Tflop GPU to a 1.8Tflop one because the former GPU can't work at full capacity any longer as it's memory bandwidth bottlenecked.

Example for an Nvidia GPU -- GT 640's Floating Point performance is fixed but look at the dramatic effect of swapping out DDR3 for GDDR5 on actual gaming performance.

GT 640 DDR3 = 46 VP

GT 640 GDDR5 = 68 VP (+48% faster) by just swapping out DDR3 for GDDR5. 

http://alienbabeltech.com/abt/viewtopic.php?p=41174

Example for an AMD GPU:

3DMark11

HD6670 GDDR3 = 1594 marks

HD6670 GDDR5 = 2479 marks (+55%)

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=710062

Memory bandwidth for the GPU is like vital performance enhancing nutrients for a sports athlete. 

 

On paper, things are looking MUCH worse for the Xbox 720's GPU. Not only is the GPU's floating point rumored to be 50% less than that of PS4, but the actual memory subsystem that feeds the GPU is dramatically inferior to PS4's rumored 4GB GDDR5 setup. The performance difference between an HD7770Ghz DDR3 and an 85% HD7870 GDDR5 is going to be more than double in graphical capability, not 50%, because memory bandwidth is required to keep the GPU working at full capacity (specifically the memory bandwidth feeds the GPU's ROPs).

The Render Output Unit, often abbreviated as "ROP", and sometimes called (perhaps more properly) Raster Operations Pipeline, is one of the final steps in the rendering process of modern 3D accelerator boards. If you neuter GPU's memory bandwidth, you neuter the ROPs and thus the final stage in the graphical rendering process stage. It's like putting Toyota Prius tires on a 700hp rear-wheel drive supercar. 32MB of eSRAM is not going to be the answer to this problem because it's not sufficient enough in size.

 

In practice, Xbox 720's DDR3 memory bandwidth seems to be estimated at just 68GB/sec. 1.76Tflops HD7850 has 154GB/sec:

http://www.gpureview.com/show_cards.php?card1=678&card2=677

If Sony retains GDDR5 for its GPU, Xbox 720's GPU is going to be significantly slower. Also, if we look at the diagram for rumored Xbox 720 specs, DDR3 has to communicate through the NorthBridge prior to reaching the GPU. That introduces additional latencies. If PS4 has GDDR5 and at least some of it is dedicated to the GPU, not only will the memory subsystem feeding the GPU will be miles faster than Xbox 720's, but the GPU will be able to access it much quicker (much like it does on a real modern graphics card where the GPU communicates with GDDR5 directly on the same PCB).

Now take the Xbox 720's GPU with its rumored 50% lower GPU power and consider that it also appears crippled by shared DDR3 memory, it stands to reason that PS4's GPU with its dedicated GDDR5 will mop the floor with it.  There is a reason all high-end GPUs on the PC use dedicated GDDR5.....so far I am not impressed with these Xbox 720 specs.

@ SuperChunk, 

In your PS4/Orbis chart, the GPU is rumored to be an 800mhz clocked 18 Compute Units HD7970M part (or a 20% downclocked, 10% Compute Unit cut down HD7870 desktop part). You have it at 850mhz 20 Compute Units which are actual specs of the full-fledged HD7970M.

Yeah so i don't know why neogaf people think it will HD7770 level,in fact,even they think about mid/low range,at least use retail HD8000

I don't know Sony,but Durango clearly will use HD8000

And most wtf thing is some people in neogaf said Durango will have some magic assist hardware to make their "rumored HD7770" on par or even little better than PS4's "rumored 85% HD7870/7970M" lol


Yeah, I hope so. Because according to Bluefalcon. A GDDR3/wGPU sounds like a VERY VERY bad combination, up to the point where the GPU itself cant even run at full power.  Personally I think that MS will develop two consoles. One with a kinect included (a mildly slower casual-targeted console) and one with a higher spec'd more expensive console. 

 

But hey, its all rumors. I mean a few months ago, every one has been saying that Xbox is going to be much much faster than the Ps4. But now its saying the exact opposite thing. Its all a rollercoeaster ride, and the ride hasn't finished yet. 

Yeah i know

But i'm not surprised if they use DDR3(actually GDDR3 and DDR3 not the same thing),but if they use,it won't be just 1GB vs 1GB like the picture,or 5GB vs 3.5GB like the rumors level,the amount gap will much lager than 1.5GB-3GB from the rumors.

Check my pm few mins later anyway.



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BlueFalcon said:

I posted this in another thread but I thought it's worth of consideration in this thread too.

DDR3 of Xbox 720 vs. GDDR5 of PS4 - the impact on the GPU performance.

Your comparisons are pretty off the GT640 is going from 28.5 GB/s for DDR3 to 80GB/s for GDDR5 for example, there are no DDR3 cards on the market that offer anywhere near 68GB/s and even if they did the comparison still wouldn't work as the Durango has the ESRAM and also aparently some new memory controlers that allow the GPU to access both pools at the same time.  Also keep in mind Orbis will likely be limited to a 128-bit Bus (wider Buses get exponentially more expensive and can limit die shinks in the future) so is probably looking at ~86GB/s (highest I have seen for GDDR5 on a 128-bit bus) it's self so will likely not be some bandwidth monster ether.

As long as you can fit the framebuffer in the eSRAM the main memory bandwidth shouldn't impact ROPs too much, especially as the GPU can access both pools at the same time. And with a modern tile based renderer you can swap out tiles as needed so the don't even need to fit all the render targets in eSRAM at once, just like what devs do with the X360s 10MB framebuffer today. It's still a bottleneck in many cases but not one that couldn't be worked around with the eSRAM even if it means dropping the native resolution a bit.



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Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

At this point who really cares? I BELIEVE ALL NEXT GEN SYSTEMS ARE GONNA LOOK SIMILAR!!! It's like comparing near equal penis sizes where a few cm won't change the enjoyment of the system!!! :/



tbh...I am still enjoying my 360 and I am still very satisfied with the performance I have on that system. Along with my current purchase of the Wii U there is no need for me to rush to a new Xbox this year! MS can take it's time releasing the system and making it as good as it could be.



superchunk said:
HoloDust said:
superchunk said:
More tweaking of info.... fill free to assist me with specific info and especially ranking/comparison info now that parts are starting to become clearer.

 

  Approximate GPU Performance Config VP Rating vs 360
Xbox 360 2 x HD2600XT * 0.625 240:16:8 (VLIW5) 14.6 1.0
WiiU (Redwood LE@550MHz) HD5550(DDR3) 320:16:8 (VLIW5) 21.8 1.5
WiiU (Redwood@550MHz) HD5570(DDR3) * 0.85 400:20:8 (VLIW5) 25.5 1.7
WiiU (Turks@550MHz) HD6570(DDR3) * 0.85 480:24:8 (VLIW5) 28.9 2.0
Xbox 720 (Rumoured) HD7770GHz 768:48:16 (GCN) 94 6.4
PS4 (Rumoured) HD7870 * 0.78 1152:72:32 (GCN) 135 9.2

Nice. Can you throw the Wii in there?

I could try ;)

Reason that both PS3 and Wii are missing is they are both quite tricky to assess. I tried it before for PS3 and come up with something like 11-12 VP. As for Wii, after some comparing my guestimate would be around 1.7-1.8 VP

This whole table is of course just for GPU, not taking into account all other stuff that might help performance. For example, that Data Move Engine in NextBox sounds to me a lot like Amiga blitter, and if it has similar purpose I think it can really help a lot in overall performance.



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superchunk said:
JGarret said:
So, chunk, If I´m not mistaken, you were assuming (don´t know if you still are) the Wii U - Durango/Orbis gap would be like the one we saw with PS2 - GC/Xbox, with the Wii U being 'the PS2', while Durango/Orbis would be 'GC/Xbox'...now, if the latest info is correct, would the gap be larger than you thought?

I´m not talking Wii - PS3/X360 gap here, but larger than PS2 - GC/Xbox was, something in the middle of those two situations.

At this point I still think its PS2 to Xbox, yes. But this is also hard for some to grasp as many give too much credit to PS2 and even try to argue it was at or better than Gamecube... it clearly isn't.

Also, keep in mind the Wii to Ps360 gap was pretty much almost generational as it not only included a raw power gap, but also a lack of certain technological features. Whereas WiiU will have all the same technical features and a similar architecture, just less raw power.

This should mean differences more like the settings on an average PC game. WiiU would be medium and others max.... or WiiU required and others recommended and so on.

But could it be argued that the gap between Wii U and PS720 will be more like Dreamcast vs GC/Xbox, rather than PS2 vs GC/Xbox?



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Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

D-Joe said:

But i'm not surprised if they use DDR3(actually GDDR3 and DDR3 not the same thing),but if they use,it won't be just 1GB vs 1GB like the picture,or 5GB vs 3.5GB like the rumors level,the amount gap will much lager than 1.5GB-3GB from the rumors.

Check my pm few mins later anyway.

That's wrong... in fact the GDDR4 and GDDR5 are DDR3 based... not confuse the names.

GDDR3 have nothing in common with DDR3... well both are memory lol.



ethomaz said:

D-Joe said:

But i'm not surprised if they use DDR3(actually GDDR3 and DDR3 not the same thing),but if they use,it won't be just 1GB vs 1GB like the picture,or 5GB vs 3.5GB like the rumors level,the amount gap will much lager than 1.5GB-3GB from the rumors.

Check my pm few mins later anyway.

That's wrong... in fact the GDDR4 and GDDR5 are DDR3 based... not confuse the names.

GDDR3 have nothing in common with DDR3... well both are memory lol.

I say "not the same thing",not "it's same thing"



DanneSandin said:
superchunk said:
JGarret said:
So, chunk, If I´m not mistaken, you were assuming (don´t know if you still are) the Wii U - Durango/Orbis gap would be like the one we saw with PS2 - GC/Xbox, with the Wii U being 'the PS2', while Durango/Orbis would be 'GC/Xbox'...now, if the latest info is correct, would the gap be larger than you thought?

I´m not talking Wii - PS3/X360 gap here, but larger than PS2 - GC/Xbox was, something in the middle of those two situations.

At this point I still think its PS2 to Xbox, yes. But this is also hard for some to grasp as many give too much credit to PS2 and even try to argue it was at or better than Gamecube... it clearly isn't.

Also, keep in mind the Wii to Ps360 gap was pretty much almost generational as it not only included a raw power gap, but also a lack of certain technological features. Whereas WiiU will have all the same technical features and a similar architecture, just less raw power.

This should mean differences more like the settings on an average PC game. WiiU would be medium and others max.... or WiiU required and others recommended and so on.

But could it be argued that the gap between Wii U and PS720 will be more like Dreamcast vs GC/Xbox, rather than PS2 vs GC/Xbox?

Possibly, but I dont' think it makes much of a difference. Its still far from Wii vs PS360.



superchunk said:
DanneSandin said:
superchunk said:
JGarret said:
So, chunk, If I´m not mistaken, you were assuming (don´t know if you still are) the Wii U - Durango/Orbis gap would be like the one we saw with PS2 - GC/Xbox, with the Wii U being 'the PS2', while Durango/Orbis would be 'GC/Xbox'...now, if the latest info is correct, would the gap be larger than you thought?

I´m not talking Wii - PS3/X360 gap here, but larger than PS2 - GC/Xbox was, something in the middle of those two situations.

At this point I still think its PS2 to Xbox, yes. But this is also hard for some to grasp as many give too much credit to PS2 and even try to argue it was at or better than Gamecube... it clearly isn't.

Also, keep in mind the Wii to Ps360 gap was pretty much almost generational as it not only included a raw power gap, but also a lack of certain technological features. Whereas WiiU will have all the same technical features and a similar architecture, just less raw power.

This should mean differences more like the settings on an average PC game. WiiU would be medium and others max.... or WiiU required and others recommended and so on.

But could it be argued that the gap between Wii U and PS720 will be more like Dreamcast vs GC/Xbox, rather than PS2 vs GC/Xbox?

Possibly, but I dont' think it makes much of a difference. Its still far from Wii vs PS360.

But just because it's not like Wii vs PS360 doesn't mean it's good... It's weird how Nintendo fans seem to accept things like that, "oh well, at least it won't be the same gap as with the Wii..." It doesn't make it any less terrible...



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.