By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - Do humans have free will?

 

What do you think?

Yes 67 70.53%
 
No 28 29.47%
 
Total:95
Mr Khan on 23 October 2011
Kantor said:
Level1Death said:
Jay520 said:
I personally don't think humans have free will. I believe humans actually lack the ability to 'decide' their actions. Sure, humans appear to make their decisions, but one has to realise that every 'decision' we make is based upon our experience of the world, which is based upon external factors which we have no control over.

One person's brain is composed of the same atoms as any other person. Barring any genetic mutations, which are uncontrollable anyway, humans are more or less born with the same state of mind. The difference in each individual is caused by the unique 'experience' that each individual goes through.

We make decisions based on what we know. Our knowledge originates from external stimuli. Our brains are clouded by our limited perspective of the world. We don't choose what we percieve. We just percieve what we come across. These perceptions are then combined with other perceptions & innate instincts and our brains uses those [external] factors to form what we call 'decisions'.

With all that said, I can confidently say that every choice/decision is absolutely determined by factors out of our control. If if we have do have some control over our decisions, which we don't, one cannot deny the presence external stimuli as a large factor in affecting our choices in life, thus, affecting our personality.

Thoughts?

So if I wanted to kill some one, I could just blame it on factors out of my control?

Not really, because the jury has no free will to decide whether or not you're guilty, and the judge has no free will to sentence you. Hell, I have no free will to say this.

It all sounds far too complicated to really work. It implies that you could travel forward in time, because anything that anyone will ever do is already set.

I think the big decisions in life - when you marry, whether you commit any crimes, where you work - will be largely decided by upbringing, genetics and other exposure, but little things like whether to eat corn flakes or coco pops and whether or not to scratch your back are pretty much entirely down to free will.

Chemical signals in your brain determine all the little things. How much has your craving for chocolate been satiated determines whether you pick corn flakes or cocoa puffs, and scratching your back is about how sensitive your nerves are and how much of a signal from your nervous system that your brain is willing to tolerate

I may not necessarily believe this, but the determinist perspective can explain all decisions whenever



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Around the Network
SvennoJ on 23 October 2011

It seems impossible to prove free will other then a gut feeling that you are making decisions yourself. You can think about what would have happened had you made a different decision but you can never know for sure you could have actually done it differently.

There is a lot of empirical evidence to suggest free will is at the least very limited. Behavior modification therapy, the effect of drugs, alcohol and medication on your decision making process, the effectiveness of advertising, social engineering, criminology, the acceptance of temporary insanity as a legal defense.

Of course not having free will is no excuse to leave dangerous people roam free. Society is self regulating to ensure the safety of the group. Whether or not you had a choice to commit a crime doesn't matter in the end, only whether you pose a threat to the group. Jail is very much there as a behavior modification tool. (Although sticking criminals together usually leads to negative reinforcement)

Also evolution suggests there is no special free will in humans as opposed to other species. At what point would the evolving brain have come in control of quantum uncertainty to influence the course of physics, or become an amplifier so to speak to let quantum events rule decision making.

Consciousness and awareness seem to me tools to focus attention, to take as many factors, past and present, into account before reaching a decision, and to store the results to be part of future decision making processes. The brain is constantly looking for patterns and explanations to help future decisions. At what point does that become free will?

I think after unloading mu thoughts my desire to play a video game has now overcome my need to discuss this topic.



miz1q2w3e on 23 October 2011
SvennoJ said:
It seems impossible to prove free will other then a gut feeling that you are making decisions yourself. You can think about what would have happened had you made a different decision but you can never know for sure you could have actually done it differently.

There is a lot of empirical evidence to suggest free will is at the least very limited. Behavior modification therapy, the effect of drugs, alcohol and medication on your decision making process, the effectiveness of advertising, social engineering, criminology, the acceptance of temporary insanity as a legal defense.

Of course not having free will is no excuse to leave dangerous people roam free. Society is self regulating to ensure the safety of the group. Whether or not you had a choice to commit a crime doesn't matter in the end, only whether you pose a threat to the group. Jail is very much there as a behavior modification tool. (Although sticking criminals together usually leads to negative reinforcement)

Also evolution suggests there is no special free will in humans as opposed to other species. At what point would the evolving brain have come in control of quantum uncertainty to influence the course of physics, or become an amplifier so to speak to let quantum events rule decision making.

Consciousness and awareness seem to me tools to focus attention, to take as many factors, past and present, into account before reaching a decision, and to store the results to be part of future decision making processes. The brain is constantly looking for patterns and explanations to help future decisions. At what point does that become free will?

I think after unloading mu thoughts my desire to play a video game has now overcome my need to discuss this topic.

Wow amazing post!



DélioPT on 23 October 2011

You are free, just not absolutely. Only God has that power.
Can you do everything you want? No. Can you at least do one thing? Yes? Can you choose to do it or not to do it? Yes, you can. That`s free will: being able to choose.
Doesn`t matter how you are influenced or how reactions to your material or immaterial actions constrain you, you choose every single time you have the ability to do so.
I don`t believe you are 100% what influences you, basically because you and other help build that outside world. You build, you are influenced, you rebuild, you are influenced, you rebuild, you are influenced, etc.

Bottom line is, despite all the things you can`t control, there are other things you can control. You are both.



miz1q2w3e on 23 October 2011

I don't think people read the OP carefully enough ^^

Though the idea does give new meaning to the term destiny

I mean since everything is a result of something earlier, future events can theoretically be predetermined... Kinda like the idea of what people refer to as destiny (in religion)



Around the Network
Kasz216 on 23 October 2011
Jay520 said:
I personally don't think humans have free will. I believe humans actually lack the ability to 'decide' their actions. Sure, humans appear to make their decisions, but one has to realise that every 'decision' we make is based upon our experience of the world, which is based upon external factors which we have no control over.

One person's brain is composed of the same atoms as any other person. Barring any genetic mutations, which are uncontrollable anyway, humans are more or less born with the same state of mind. The difference in each individual is caused by the unique 'experience' that each individual goes through.

We make decisions based on what we know. Our knowledge originates from external stimuli. Our brains are clouded by our limited perspective of the world. We don't choose what we percieve. We just percieve what we come across. These perceptions are then combined with other perceptions & innate instincts and our brains uses those [external] factors to form what we call 'decisions'.

With all that said, I can confidently say that every choice/decision is absolutely determined by factors out of our control. If if we do have some control over our decisions, which we don't, one cannot deny the presence external stimuli as a large factor in affecting our choices in life, thus, affecting our personality.

With that said, one could say that the only thing that differs people are the things we come across, not who we are. The only thing that makes me any different from a prisoner is the different occurences we've experienced, I just had a better state of mind caused by a more fortunate experience with the world.

Thoughts?

A) Everyone's brains are NOT the same at birth.

Furthermore twins who are seperated at birth and live widely seperate lives actually tend to have pretty similar lives.  If not in terms of success, they due in terms of hobbies and such.

B) Tons of people have a "Serial killer" type brain.  Few people are serial killers, even among people who live very similar lives.

Conclusion.  People are born with very differnt framed of mind at birth which shape general interests and hobbies, however actual action seems to be based on something else.

What the other thing is, is unknown right now, making this debate somewhat pointless.

In general your entire premise is off base in regards to modern psychology and biology.



Kasz216 on 23 October 2011
Dr.Grass said:
spurgeonryan said:
I had a funny reason that I wanted to add, but it would make Jay mad about recent things. By the way I have a thread about that if you want to share with all of us!

Humans do have free will. I just ate a carmel apple , did not have to, in fact something inside me (arteries) told me not to, but because of my free will I decided to eat it. Just like I decided to post here instead of the latest JoelCool7 thread, or one of my own.


That's not an argument at all. Just because things happened in a certain way and you feel you were the cause does not mean you are the cause - that's the whole point of this debate.


Maybe he's just an evolutionary biologist.  Oddly enough that's how most evolutionary biologists judge free will.



Jay520 on 23 October 2011
Kasz216 said:
Jay520 said:
I personally don't think humans have free will. I believe humans actually lack the ability to 'decide' their actions. Sure, humans appear to make their decisions, but one has to realise that every 'decision' we make is based upon our experience of the world, which is based upon external factors which we have no control over.

One person's brain is composed of the same atoms as any other person. Barring any genetic mutations, which are uncontrollable anyway, humans are more or less born with the same state of mind. The difference in each individual is caused by the unique 'experience' that each individual goes through.

We make decisions based on what we know. Our knowledge originates from external stimuli. Our brains are clouded by our limited perspective of the world. We don't choose what we percieve. We just percieve what we come across. These perceptions are then combined with other perceptions & innate instincts and our brains uses those [external] factors to form what we call 'decisions'.

With all that said, I can confidently say that every choice/decision is absolutely determined by factors out of our control. If if we do have some control over our decisions, which we don't, one cannot deny the presence external stimuli as a large factor in affecting our choices in life, thus, affecting our personality.

With that said, one could say that the only thing that differs people are the things we come across, not who we are. The only thing that makes me any different from a prisoner is the different occurences we've experienced, I just had a better state of mind caused by a more fortunate experience with the world.

Thoughts?

A) Everyone's brains are NOT the same at birth.

Furthermore twins who are seperated at birth and live widely seperate lives actually tend to have pretty similar lives.  If not in terms of success, they due in terms of hobbies and such.

B) Tons of people have a "Serial killer" type brain.  Few people are serial killers, even among people who live very similar lives.

Conclusion.  People are born with very differnt framed of mind at birth which shape general interests and hobbies, however actual action seems to be based on something else.

What the other thing is, is unknown right now, making this debate somewhat pointless.

In general your entire premise is off base in regards to modern psychology and biology.



@conclusion. Wouldn't that mean people have little control over their personality considering people are born with a general frame of mind?

I wasn't really interested in a debate considering I know very little on the topic. I was more interested in what the more educated posters had to say.

Jay520 on 23 October 2011
spurgeonryan said:
I had a funny reason that I wanted to add, but it would make Jay mad about recent things. By the way I have a thread about that if you want to share with all of us!


Wait, what are you talking about?

Kasz216 on 23 October 2011
Jay520 said:
Kasz216 said:
Jay520 said:
I personally don't think humans have free will. I believe humans actually lack the ability to 'decide' their actions. Sure, humans appear to make their decisions, but one has to realise that every 'decision' we make is based upon our experience of the world, which is based upon external factors which we have no control over.

One person's brain is composed of the same atoms as any other person. Barring any genetic mutations, which are uncontrollable anyway, humans are more or less born with the same state of mind. The difference in each individual is caused by the unique 'experience' that each individual goes through.

We make decisions based on what we know. Our knowledge originates from external stimuli. Our brains are clouded by our limited perspective of the world. We don't choose what we percieve. We just percieve what we come across. These perceptions are then combined with other perceptions & innate instincts and our brains uses those [external] factors to form what we call 'decisions'.

With all that said, I can confidently say that every choice/decision is absolutely determined by factors out of our control. If if we do have some control over our decisions, which we don't, one cannot deny the presence external stimuli as a large factor in affecting our choices in life, thus, affecting our personality.

With that said, one could say that the only thing that differs people are the things we come across, not who we are. The only thing that makes me any different from a prisoner is the different occurences we've experienced, I just had a better state of mind caused by a more fortunate experience with the world.

Thoughts?

A) Everyone's brains are NOT the same at birth.

Furthermore twins who are seperated at birth and live widely seperate lives actually tend to have pretty similar lives.  If not in terms of success, they due in terms of hobbies and such.

B) Tons of people have a "Serial killer" type brain.  Few people are serial killers, even among people who live very similar lives.

Conclusion.  People are born with very differnt framed of mind at birth which shape general interests and hobbies, however actual action seems to be based on something else.

What the other thing is, is unknown right now, making this debate somewhat pointless.

In general your entire premise is off base in regards to modern psychology and biology.


@conclusion. Wouldn't that mean people have little control over their personality considering people are born with a general frame of mind?

I wasn't really interested in a debate considering I know very little on the topic. I was more interested in what the more educated posters had to say.

It depends on what your talking about.

Whether or not you will like woodworking seems  mostly be genetic at birth with some cultural element.

Whether or not you have a short temper is a combination of both.

Whether or not your going to kill someone else or do something dickish to someoen else.... is up do something else completely, that's partly biology, partly cultural, bust mostly "Something else".

Biology and Culture may be more likely to make you do it.... but whether or not you do...

that seems to be up to something else completely.