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Entroper said:
senseinobaka said:

The prebate is not welfare. It's compensation for money that the individual will pay in taxes. Think of it as tax forgiveness for essentials. Everyone will get this tax forgiveness no matter what their income is. Welfare on the other hand is government giving an individual money they did not earn. Usually the money comes from public funds that were taxed by working individuals. I believe sincerely that the ideaology and reasons behind the prebate are very different than those of welfare.


It isn't compensation for money that the individual will pay in taxes. If it were, you would measure what the individual spent on essentials, and give them 23% of that back. Instead, the government gives each person an "allowance" of what they think covers essential expenses, and pays them back for the taxes on those expenses whether or not the person spends that much (they could spend less or more on essentials, depending on their living conditions).

Something I see a lot in this discussion are the FairTax supporters saying "think of it as _____." You have to realize there are different ways of looking at something, and at the end of the day, it is what it is, no matter what you call it, and no matter what kind of ideology is behind it. Wouldn't it be easier to just not tax essential products and skip the prebate? That way, no one is paying tax on essential products, and no one is getting welfare checks even if they didn't pay that much in taxes on essentials. The prebate doesn't account for different costs of goods in different areas, it doesn't account for bums who spend their money on alcohol instead of food and clothing, and it requires an address which prevents the homeless from being compensated.

The sponsors of the FairTax are big on getting rid of the complex Income Tax system and replacing it with something simple without loopholes and exceptions and what not. So why do we need this prebate system if we can just not tax essentials from the get go? Why bother setting up another government agency to track whether you're single or married or have kids to print all the prebate checks? Again, I really like the idea of a consumption tax vs. an income tax, but the prebate is exactly the kind of political ridiculousness that we're trying to get rid of.


 Entroper I answered you question in my previous post to Kasz. However to bring up a point about the different costs of goods in different areas.

I believe the Poverty level is not exactly perfect. A much better way to measure the cost of living would be regional. A person making $20,000 might be able to survive in Oklahoma, but would not be able to make it in NYC. A regional system would be much better and could/should be moved towards to avoid what you bring up.

As far as registering requiring an address, I am in favor of this. If you live in any type of conventional housing you can get the Prebate. If you have a job but live in your car, The FairTax could have an exception. Upon proof of employment you could have your prebate mailed there.

 Guys I just found an article on Slate.com (not a conservative strong hold) about the FairTax. Here it is: http://www.slate.com/id/2181833/nav/tap3/

Just thought you should read it. 



I want my WHOLE paycheck! I support the Fair Tax!

http://www.fairtax.org/

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Eomund said:
The Prebate only is refunded for the essential goods needed to survive, hence why it is based on the poverty level. Therefore the Prebate is not a welfare program, but a tax refund on the essentials of living. If we were to not apply the FairTax on those essential goods already, the rate on goods the FairTax would apply to would be very high.

This seems improbable, given that the government wouldn't have to pay the prebate checks, or the cost of running the agency that tracks and prints them.



Eomund said:

Entroper I answered you question in my previous post to Kasz. However to bring up a point about the different costs of goods in different areas.

I believe the Poverty level is not exactly perfect. A much better way to measure the cost of living would be regional. A person making $20,000 might be able to survive in Oklahoma, but would not be able to make it in NYC. A regional system would be much better and could/should be moved towards to avoid what you bring up.

As far as registering requiring an address, I am in favor of this. If you live in any type of conventional housing you can get the Prebate. If you have a job but live in your car, The FairTax could have an exception. Upon proof of employment you could have your prebate mailed there.

Guys I just found an article on Slate.com (not a conservative strong hold) about the FairTax. Here it is: http://www.slate.com/id/2181833/nav/tap3/

Just thought you should read it.


Again, this is MORE bureaucracy, not less.  Once we start adding exceptions and loopholes, we've got another IRS.  I warned about this a few pages back.   The FairTax isn't even implemented and already we're thinking of new ways to complicate it!  :) 



The problem with sales tax is its a regressive tax. The lower your income, the higher percentage of your income goes to tax.

While it is true that the wealthier you are your tendency will be to buy more expensive things, but this is not universally true, and when you get down in to the lower income levels the effects could be disasterous.

If ALL new items are taxed (clothes, food, etc) the effects would be even worse.

Consider 2 people, one making 20,000/year one making 25,000/year. Say they have roughly the same taxable living expenses a year (say 10,000 pre tax, both would pay around 2300)

Now this leaves the 20,000/year individual paying 11.5% of their income in tax and the 25,000/year paying 9.2% of their income each year in tax.

I don't see how this is "Fair," especially since the 25000 is in control of more wealth in the country.



I am a Gauntlet Adventurer.

I strive to improve my living conditions by hoarding gold, food, and sometimes keys and potions. I love adventure, fighting, and particularly winning - especially when there's a prize at stake. I occasionally get lost inside buildings and can't find the exit. I need food badly. What Video Game Character Are You?

Mega Man 9 Challenges: 74%

Waltz Tango Jitterbug Bust a move Headbanging
Bunny Hop Mr. Trigger Happy Double Trouble Mr. Perfect Invincible
Almost Invincible No Coffee Break Air Shoes Mega Diet Encore
Peacekeeper Conservationist Farewell To Arms Gamer's Day Daily Dose
Whomp Wiley! Truly Addicted! Truly Hardcore! Conqueror Vanquisher
Destroyer World Warrior Trusty Sidearm Pack Rat Valued Customer
Shop A Holic Last Man Standing Survivor Hard Rock Heavy Metal
Speed Metal Fantastic 9 Fully Unloaded Blue Bomber Eco Fighter
Marathon Fight Quick Draw G Quick Draw C Quick Draw S Quick Draw H
Quick Draw J Quick Draw P Quick Draw T Quick Draw M Quick Draw X

CrashMan this is why there is a Prebate to refund the tax on the living expenses. People at or under the Poverty level pay no taxes because they can't spend more than they earn (unless they use a credit card yes... but ignoring that). The rate is set so that the more you spend, the more you pay taxes. If what you make is what you spend, then you will pay more taxes than people who make less money than you.

Entroper, perhaps instead of the Federal Government creating regional poverty levels, we let the states do it as the Constitution would suggest in Amendment 10.



I want my WHOLE paycheck! I support the Fair Tax!

http://www.fairtax.org/

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Also guys I won't be around for most of the rest of today or tomorrow due to work and life duties.



I want my WHOLE paycheck! I support the Fair Tax!

http://www.fairtax.org/

Eomund said:

If a person cannot afford kids, they shouldn't have them. If a person has them anyway I consider that a form of abuse and neglect stemming from that person's inability to be responsible for their own reproductive system. If they cannot be responsible with that through easy means, birth control pills, etc., then how are they going to be responsible for a kid

 

 

 



Beware, I live!
I am Sinistar!
Beware, coward!
I hunger!
Roaaaaaaaaaar!

 

 

 At least 62 million Wii sold by the end of 09 or my mario avatar will get sad

^^ What are you implying Copycon? You quote me as saying something that makes sense and you post a picture of Less social and genetic worth. What do you mean to say? I guess I just don't understand you...



I want my WHOLE paycheck! I support the Fair Tax!

http://www.fairtax.org/

CrashMan said:
The problem with sales tax is its a regressive tax. The lower your income, the higher percentage of your income goes to tax.

While it is true that the wealthier you are your tendency will be to buy more expensive things, but this is not universally true, and when you get down in to the lower income levels the effects could be disasterous.

If ALL new items are taxed (clothes, food, etc) the effects would be even worse.

Consider 2 people, one making 20,000/year one making 25,000/year. Say they have roughly the same taxable living expenses a year (say 10,000 pre tax, both would pay around 2300)

Now this leaves the 20,000/year individual paying 11.5% of their income in tax and the 25,000/year paying 9.2% of their income each year in tax.

I don't see how this is "Fair," especially since the 25000 is in control of more wealth in the country.


That's why I favor not taxing food and clothing (basic clothing, not flashy designer crap), not taxing one car or one house up to a certain value, etc.  IMO, it would be simpler to do this than prebates.



But what if someone making 1 million a year spends the same as someone making 100,000 just based on what they want and their frugality.

the person making 1 million would pay 1/10th the rate of their income in taxes than the person that makes 100,000. Yet they still control 10 times the wealth in the country.

It doesn't make sense how this is considered a "Fair Tax"



I am a Gauntlet Adventurer.

I strive to improve my living conditions by hoarding gold, food, and sometimes keys and potions. I love adventure, fighting, and particularly winning - especially when there's a prize at stake. I occasionally get lost inside buildings and can't find the exit. I need food badly. What Video Game Character Are You?

Mega Man 9 Challenges: 74%

Waltz Tango Jitterbug Bust a move Headbanging
Bunny Hop Mr. Trigger Happy Double Trouble Mr. Perfect Invincible
Almost Invincible No Coffee Break Air Shoes Mega Diet Encore
Peacekeeper Conservationist Farewell To Arms Gamer's Day Daily Dose
Whomp Wiley! Truly Addicted! Truly Hardcore! Conqueror Vanquisher
Destroyer World Warrior Trusty Sidearm Pack Rat Valued Customer
Shop A Holic Last Man Standing Survivor Hard Rock Heavy Metal
Speed Metal Fantastic 9 Fully Unloaded Blue Bomber Eco Fighter
Marathon Fight Quick Draw G Quick Draw C Quick Draw S Quick Draw H
Quick Draw J Quick Draw P Quick Draw T Quick Draw M Quick Draw X