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Forums - General - Prove that evolution is what actually happened.

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VXIII said:

There is no proof, both titles lack good understanding. :)

I see it from another angle , we know that the evolution does happen in a limited form between breeds, but the theory goes against what we know as humanity, as the white Europeans ( where Darwin is from ) are the most evolved, and according the the law of jungle (the strong survive) they have the right to do anything to "survive", is that something you'd like to follow?, especially as I said there is no proof and the "links" will never be found.
Also, what about some animals have more advanced ability than us, Climbing Monkeys, owls have extraordinary night vision , how can this be explained ?.

Don't confuse Darwin's theory of evolution (which referres to biology) with social Darwinism (a movement based on misconceptions about Darwin's ideas, and heavily influenced on racist ideeas that predate Darwin, and have nothing to do with him). Actually, when Darwin used the term 'survival of the fittest' he meant 'better adapted for local environment', not 'the strong survive'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_fittest



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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Player1x3 said:
First off, very few religious people deny evolution by now. 2nd, evolution does in no way disprove existence of God by the slightest. I think this is a flamebait/troll thread to be honest

This is actually not true. At least, the overwhelming majority of people part of Abrahamic religions do not believe in evolution. Don't know about the Asian religions.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sethnintendo said:
nightsurge said:

Are you kidding me? Of course it requires faith to believe in. Since it cannot be proven 100% beyond reasonable doubt it requires at least a small amount of faith/belief in its most basic form.

Also, how can you say there is NO evidence of a God when hundreds of millions of people have observed acts that seem to give credence to a divine being? When all logic is defied and someone specifically observes an act of this nature themselves, that's a big thing. Sure you can try to call it "chance" or try to explain things scientifically, but I'm mostly just trying to point out that there are plenty of observations made out there to support a god. Science and it's evidence is based on observations, and there are just as many observations supporting a divine being/divine intervention as there are scientific based observations for theories.

The closest I ever came to an act of God was when I tripped balls.  Shrooms, 2ce, 2ci, AMT, acid.....  Not trying to be a smart ass but when using those drugs (rarely, not all time considering it would be too much) I actually feel a connection to the world.  Nature seems even more beautiful (I have a wildlife major so I already like nature to begin with).  Anyways, I only do shrooms now and I would suggest anyone to at least trying shrooms once.

Will you give that advice to your kids?



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

silicon said:
The best way to answer the OP is to show that humans evolved the belief in religion...

They already know that people have a genetic predisposition to believing in religion.


They also are starting to realize how religions evolve and adapt to human circumstances. Humanity needed a reason for people to take care of the poor, sick, old, disadvantaged etc.

One of the modern intellectual vices is to try to find a connection between evolution and everything. Believe it or not, but no study actually shows any 'predisposition to believe in religion'. They just show parts of the brain active when people think about religion (which doesn't mean that those areas activate as a sort of reflex, forcing the person to have those thoughts, but simply that they're the areas used when a person things such things). Evolution has nothing to do with social and cultural practices, which are taught after a person is born.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:

Will you give that advice to your kids?

Made me laugh..


I think the best advice for my kids (if I ever have any) would be to not repeat my past mistakes.  I've made way too many mistakes in my life.  I don't consider tripping a mistake though and I am glad I did it (glad I didn't do too much also).  Even though shrooms are natural there are possibilities of getting bad shrooms.  I've never had a bad trip (bought some bad acid before that didn't do anything) but I know people do have bad experiences tripping (one girl from hs days said her toilet started overflowing and she spent like the next 5 hours trying to fix it while she was tripping).  If you surround yourself with your best friends then the likely hood of a bad trip is very minimum.  

I even got choked by my dad when I was in high school while tripping on acid (he never did anything like that before or after) and didn't have a bad trip then.  He thought we were smoking in my room when he really just smelled our clothes (we baked out my mom's explorer with a ton of blunts, we actually parked by an abandoned house out in the country that was supposed to be haunted which wasn't the smartest idea considering if a cop actually saw us back there then we would be pretty much f'd) .  I'm just rambling on here but I have some pretty funny memories.  First time I ever tripped we actually went sledding.  I didn't bring any gloves so I only did it about 3-4 times before my hands started getting too cold.  I then did a few donuts in an empty parking lot that was covered in snow.  Last time I tripped (shrooms) I watched the Imaginarium of Dr. Parnassus and it blew my mind (already saw it before sober) plus we couldn't stop laughing... I almost just deleted this post but I hope someone finds amusement in my tripping stories.  I'll stop now...



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padib said:

Thanks, I appreciate your post. I know that there is a consensus for a given theory and as it is, the stronger one prevails. I believe we agree. However, am I mistaken to believe that it so happened in the past that one previously prevailing theory was reiging dominant after a struffle for veracity, until another came to topple it? In other words, the fact that ToE is the current winner does not make it the be all end all, and that's what I oppose. I don't oppose looking into it, I oppose the fact that people take is as given and refuse to think outside the box. Had Einstein done that (remained closed-minded)  would he have the theory of relativity as it is today?

To me, all in all, I believe that there is credibility to the science behind ToE. But the rhetoric provided by the polemic crowd only leads us in the wrong direction. Some fear religion because it leads people to say "God said so therefore it is". But all I hear rather is "Science said so therefore it is" and leave no room for alternative theorizing. Creation scientists (the honest ones) are pursuing understanding nature around them from another vantage point, albeit a scientific one, but just a different one. Why are folks so opposed to that? Is that science?

That's my gripe friend.

I know not everyone would agree with me, but it is just as important WHY someone is doing something as WHAT they are doing. If a scientist were the one saying that some entity created everything, and had more evidence than conspiracy theories (which, face it, is one of the predominant circumstantial evidences in use) then I'd try to take the idea for its merit because he is trying to explore something new, which is what science is all about.

However, MY gripe is that exploration of the possibilities is not on the table for creationists. There is no push for discovery. It is what it is and there is no arguing with it. In fact, it is an Achilles heel of science that it uses methodology that people can call conspiratorial. Carbon Dating, for example is called a conspiracy, just because it is not understood, or other scientific principles involved are misunderstood.

And yes, you are correct that scientific theories are debated..however...they are usually debated with OTHER scientific theories. The theory of geocentrism came as a result of examining movements of stars, and a faulty assumption. There was originally evidence. It was then later, after much threat under the church, that another theory, using NEW evidence appeared. It was even longer after that that it was realized the sun was not the center of the universe, just the solar system, that that the galaxy had it's OWN center. These are all things that stood at least for some time, through evidence available. But it's again not some haphazard decision. Like I mentioned in my first post, these ideas are all related, it's only the specifics which are replaced. At it's root is "orbit occurs" and it's just a matter of what is orbitting what.

This ToE vs Creationism, again, is not even on the same page. It's one body of overwhelming evidence coming from the process of speciation. And the other trying to replace it, is a philosophical idea. If ToE were ever to be replaced, it would be replaced with more refinement, not something completely different.

In fact, the replacement of theory usually springs from study error. LIke, Copernicus back in the day was like, "hey baby, check out my telescope, if geocentrism is right, mars should be appearing in about a quarter-hourglass" - 15 minutes later- "damnit, this never works properly, I'll never get laid at this point. I'm going to figure out how this works and then get all the tail in the world". BUT- this isn't the case. It's "Daddy, if dinosaurs never lived with humans, did they only live for one day?" - "You mean the story of creation? No baby, dinos and humans lived together, scientists are wrong" - "but they said dinosaurs went extinct millions of years before.." - "YOU ARE A WICKED CHILD AND WILL BE PUNISHED WITH THE FLAMES OF HELL". That's how I see it at least...probably because my dad is a devout christian and spanked me for arguing carbon dating with him.



sethnintendo said:
sapphi_snake said:

Will you give that advice to your kids?

Made me laugh..


I think the best advice for my kids (if I ever have any) would be to not repeat my past mistakes.  I've made way too many mistakes in my life.  I don't consider tripping a mistake though and I am glad I did it (glad I didn't do too much also).  Even though shrooms are natural there are possibilities of getting bad shrooms.  I've never had a bad trip (bought some bad acid before that didn't do anything) but I know people do have bad experiences tripping (one girl from hs days said her toilet started overflowing and she spent like the next 5 hours trying to fix it while she was tripping).  If you surround yourself with your best friends then the likely hood of a bad trip is very minimum.  

I even got choked by my dad when I was in high school while tripping on acid (he never did anything like that before or after) and didn't have a bad trip then.  He thought we were smoking in my room when he really just smelled our clothes (we baked out my mom's explorer with a ton of blunts, we actually parked by an abandoned house out in the country that was supposed to be haunted which wasn't the smartest idea considering if a cop actually saw us back there then we would be pretty much f'd) .  I'm just rambling on here but I have some pretty funny memories.  First time I ever tripped we actually went sledding.  I didn't bring any gloves so I only did it about 3-4 times before my hands started getting too cold.  I then did a few donuts in an empty parking lot that was covered in snow.  Last time I tripped (shrooms) I watched the Imaginarium of Dr. Parnassus and it blew my mind (already saw it before sober) plus we couldn't stop laughing... I almost just deleted this post but I hope someone finds amusement in my tripping stories.  I'll stop now...

Well, at least the toilet didn't start talking and yelling obscenities at her.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

NNN2004 said:
its already disapproved many times.


Really.  Got any details because so far as I'm aware evolution has been dispproved... oh zero times.



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

GameOver22 said:
Ssenkahdavic said:
GameOver22 said:
Ssenkahdavic said:

Ive always found these types of debates fascinating.

I do not think the question of evolution is does it exist, but in what form does it exist?

The reason we call it the "Theory of Evolution" is Darwin had a hypothesis that Natural Selection was occurring, and went to do research on his idea. (Granted it is much more in depth than this). Out of his research into Natural Selection, the scientific community began researching into his ideas further, and into other areas of Evolution (random mutations and the like).

For someone who believes in GOD or any other GODLIKE deity, is the above out of Gods reach? How do the two HAVE to be seperate and not of the same origin? People believe that GOD created everything (from Matter, to Energy to even all Idea's) so couldnt this GOD have created the "Theory of Evolution"  and the application of such?

And I would also like to put in on the Proven/Unproven debate. There is a reason the Scientific Community stopped using the term Law (Proven) to describe Scientific concepts. Newton came up with very specific laws of motion. At the time, these laws were seen as irrefutable. After many a year, we have determined that these laws are NOT absolutes but very good approximations that work great for the macroscopic scale but do not work on the quantum scale. Just because we can or cannot try to take these ideas to the level of truth, does not mean that it has to always be true. If it works here, maybe it does not work elsewhere? This is why the term Theory should always be used.

Just remember: Science just can't commit all the way to absolute - otherwise it wouldn't be science, it would be faith.

That is possible. The reason why people generally avoid making that argument is that it violates Ockham's razor (the idea that the simplest explanation is the best explanation). If evolution completely explains the origin of life, there is no reason to bring God into the picture as well. It just makes the explanation more complicated than it needs to be.

Ahh there is the Rub.  Glad you brought that up!  William (of Ockham or Occam) used the principle to justify many conclusions, including the statement that "God's existence cannot be deduced by reason alone." That one didn't make him very popular with the Pope.  Also, using the prinicple of "the idea that the simplest explanation is the best explanation" is not all together accurate.  The Razor is more of a guideline (hence being a principle) that says ""when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better."  Better, not best.  Ockham fully admitted his theories could be wrong or that they could be the only explanation.

 

Sir Isaac Newton said it the best I think "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances."

Very true. The problem I've always had with Ockham's razor is that the simpler explanation is not necessarily the better explanation. The only place where Ockham's razor makes sense is in a system that appears as if it was designed (a system that is highly ordered with no extraneous parts). If there are extraneous parts, Ockham's razor can't be used because these parts might attach onto the simpler explanation and make it more complex.

Ockham's razor itself makes some fundamental assumptions, but the assumptions are not necessarily true. For that reason, I would say Ockham's razor is useful, but hardly foolproof. It should be used carefully, but I usually have a hard time understanding when it is actually applicable.


And the best part of all of this is if you use the principle of Ockham's Razor to justify evolution.  What do you think is the simplest explanation? 

That the pattern of evolution is GODs plan.  While I might not agree with this, it can definitely be in the realm of possibility.  Is this the best explanation? Not at all, but it is probably the simplist.  I am also very sure that Wiliam of Ockham did not mean for his principle to be used in this way.  His way would be more of: How are were here through evolution or GOD?  GOD because its a much simplier explanation.   Part of why he said "God's existence cannot be deduced by reason alone."



Ssenkahdavic said:
GameOver22 said:

Very true. The problem I've always had with Ockham's razor is that the simpler explanation is not necessarily the better explanation. The only place where Ockham's razor makes sense is in a system that appears as if it was designed (a system that is highly ordered with no extraneous parts). If there are extraneous parts, Ockham's razor can't be used because these parts might attach onto the simpler explanation and make it more complex.

Ockham's razor itself makes some fundamental assumptions, but the assumptions are not necessarily true. For that reason, I would say Ockham's razor is useful, but hardly foolproof. It should be used carefully, but I usually have a hard time understanding when it is actually applicable.


And the best part of all of this is if you use the principle of Ockham's Razor to justify evolution.  What do you think is the simplest explanation? 

That the pattern of evolution is GODs plan.  While I might not agree with this, it can definitely be in the realm of possibility.  Is this the best explanation? Not at all, but it is probably the simplist.  I am also very sure that Wiliam of Ockham did not mean for his principle to be used in this way.  His way would be more of: How are were here through evolution or GOD?  GOD because its a much simplier explanation.   Part of why he said "God's existence cannot be deduced by reason alone."

I'm not quite sure I understand your point, but I will say a few things.

Biologists wouldn't use Ockham's razor to justify evolution. They would use the evidence that has been accumulated through experiments. However, they would use Ockham's razor to justify excluding God from the explanation. The point I was making, and you might be driving at this point as well, is that the proper use of Ockham's razor really requires a huge amount of knowledge about the subject in question.

As as example, take the question of human origins prior to Darwin's theory of evolution. Even in Ockham's time, there would have been any number of theories (not talking scientific theories here). Philosophers as far back as ancient Greece produced ideas very similar to Darwin's theories, but they didn't have the evidence to support them. On top of that, you have any number of theories, such as "We popped into existence five minutes ago". In this type of environment, it is difficult to apply Ockham's razor because you have a lot of theoretical arguments but no real way to assess the truth value of these arguments. In these types of situations, the apllication of Ockham's razor would mostly likely result in falsehoods because the only thing we could assess would be theoretical complexity.

Point being, if we thought real hard, we could probably come up with an argument explaining human origins that is theoretically less complex than Darwin's theory of evolution. The problem with this type of explanation is that it would not take into account the evidence we have accumulated through scientific investigations.

Also, while my knowledge of Okham is limited, I wouldn't be surprised if the quotation, "God's existence cannot be deduced by reason alone", is made in reference to the ontological argument.