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Forums - Politics - So does government spending stimulate the economy? YES and here is the numbers

 

Does government spending help stimulate the economy?

Yes 15 35.71%
 
NO 22 52.38%
 
After reading the numbers... 5 11.90%
 
Total:42
Mr Khan said:
mrstickball said:

Do you know what we did when we didn't have legal abortions nor welfare benefits?

It was called 'adoption'. In the US, over 10% of all children were given away by poor parents and given to those that could not have kids or wanted more.

Maybe we need to consider revising our laws and encouraging adoption as a middle path - no required abortions, less welfare. We've regulated adoption to make it nearly impossible for those that want it.

I was under the assumption that adoption rates were far lower than would be necessary to alleviate the problem all on its own

Adoption would certainly be yet more efficient, but for whatever reason i was under the assumption that the will isn't there

No. Prior to the legalization of abortion, adoption rates were litterally 13-15 times higher than they are today. Abortion caused a depression of the number of adoptions available (understandable), but at the same time, adoption laws became stricter and more difficult. Today, its easier to go overseas and adopt a baby from Asia than it is to adopt one right here in the states. If the laws and regulations were relaxed, you would probably be able to have far more adoptions and situations where both ends - the unfit parents and barren parents meet in the middle and are able to help eachother out.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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for every dollar the government issues is like $2 more that we owe to the federal reserve...now tell me is that justice?



spurgeonryan said:

I don't know how we can fix people these days in America. Kids just do whatever, and that has been going on for at least 20 years now.

glorifying sex,alcohol and money in movies and videos does it and americans themselves are responsible

I know there are many kids who do work hard, but there is that large amount that have no plans. So now we have people on 30 years of welfare and food stamps, work a part time job here and  a part time job there. When does it end? These people have all of these government funding and still nothing changes! They are too lazy to take advantage of what they have right now, and the governement just wants to give more and take from the wrong places like ..lets say teachers pensions and social security that hard working people have worked for their whole lives!

yup that is the shitiest thing that people on who's work from years ago onwhich the country is living right now the way they are,they want to take their stuff away



Teo said:
mrstickball said:
....Because MoveOn.Org is the most intelligent, thought out PAC in the universe, right?

Sorry, I'd rather take my economics from a guy wearing a sandwich board than MoveOn.


Maybe you should take your economics from a... economic class and not a political party.

ECO 101: Government spending is used to stimulate the economy. The Fed exists for a reason, it was created when congress wanted to see our country succeed, not fail for political points.

I don't take my economics from a political party. I've based my econonomic view by watching and reading many many lecutrers from many, many economists over the past few years.

And having said that, go look at the actual data of government spending on public works projects to stimulate the economy. Many projects are funded, and few succeed. Those that do are always lauded as being proof that stimulus works, but many people fail to note the tens of trillions of dollars that are spent in waste.

I will give you an example: ethanol subsidies. Until a few months ago, our government spent billions of dollars each year by giving $0.50 per gallon to ethanol producers as an incentive to make biofuels. Did it stimulate the industry? Yes. But it also drove corn prices up to a level unheard of, causing the price of all corn products and corn-fed animals to double in price in the past 5-6 years.

The problem with government stimulus is that approximately 600 people decide where billions of dollars are sent each year for stimulus. Because of this, much of the money is malinvested, causing waste and excess which destroys wealth in America. For example, what good did it do for the 2009 Stimulus program to pay $5 million USD to my local town to have about 10 acres mowed, and the road re-paved when it was just done 5 years ago and was in good condition? Would not the money of been better invested by ensuring it was in the hands of 300 million Americans, and their decisions on where investments should go? That is why I am against stimulus: the government has a poor track record picking winners and losers, while private monies can be invested into markets as needed, and is far more flexible and has a better track record.

Additionally, your argument about the fed (and I am unsure what part you are discussing - the Federal Reserve or other areas of the federal government) doesn't make a lot of sense. Our nation's greatest growth in GDP was well before our government became the size it is today. Our nation grew by leaps and bounds when government spending was much lower than today, and we had far fewer safety nets. Government may be well meaning, but I would argue they create many programs for poltical points and in hopes they rectify situations, regardless if the result is achieved. Our 'war on drugs' is proof positive that government intervention rarely works the way as intended - even if you throw trillions of dollars at a problem and incarcerate millions.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

So that's why 2 HUGE stimulus attempts later and the US economy is in perfect condition. Oh wait...



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Mr Khan said:
mrstickball said:
Mr Khan said:
kain_kusanagi said:
I want a low flat tax with no loop holes that everyone has to pay no matter how rich or poor. And I don't want bloated government or "stimulus" bull crap. The government should be as small as possible and stay out of our lives. All we need government for is law and order, defense, and public safety.

We don't need half of the government agencies we have. We need to stop spending tax payer's money on art grants and scholarships. We also don't need to keep taking care of 3rd and 4th generation welfare slackers. If you can't find a job and you're not disabled then I say we put you to work doing the same stuff inmates do in work release. No free handouts. I'm also tired of my tax dollars going to parents that can't take care of their kids and keep having more kids just to get more money. If you can't take care of your kids, guess what, they go to foster care until you can. The US government really needs to stop paying farmers NOT to grow certain crops and pays them to grow others.

For some reason the US government thinks you just throw money are problems instead of letting the free market fix itself for free. And now congress thinks it knows better then I do how to spend my money.

Foster care is state-run too. If we want to be so cruel about it, the only way to efficiently stop welfare babies is with mandatory abortions. Since no-one is willing to do that, welfare benefits for children is the most humane way to do it

Do you know what we did when we didn't have legal abortions nor welfare benefits?

It was called 'adoption'. In the US, over 10% of all children were given away by poor parents and given to those that could not have kids or wanted more.

Maybe we need to consider revising our laws and encouraging adoption as a middle path - no required abortions, less welfare. We've regulated adoption to make it nearly impossible for those that want it.

I was under the assumption that adoption rates were far lower than would be necessary to alleviate the problem all on its own

Adoption would certainly be yet more efficient, but for whatever reason i was under the assumption that the will isn't the

No.  It is.... for babies.

See the thing with adoption is, we have a great undersupply of babies to the point where people basically buy babies either here or overseas via differnet tactics.....


It just doesn't seem that way because of all the kids in orphanages.  Sad truth is, everyone wants a baby and almost nobody wants a kid that already has someone elses "fingerprints" on them.



Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
mrstickball said:
Mr Khan said:
kain_kusanagi said:
I want a low flat tax with no loop holes that everyone has to pay no matter how rich or poor. And I don't want bloated government or "stimulus" bull crap. The government should be as small as possible and stay out of our lives. All we need government for is law and order, defense, and public safety.

We don't need half of the government agencies we have. We need to stop spending tax payer's money on art grants and scholarships. We also don't need to keep taking care of 3rd and 4th generation welfare slackers. If you can't find a job and you're not disabled then I say we put you to work doing the same stuff inmates do in work release. No free handouts. I'm also tired of my tax dollars going to parents that can't take care of their kids and keep having more kids just to get more money. If you can't take care of your kids, guess what, they go to foster care until you can. The US government really needs to stop paying farmers NOT to grow certain crops and pays them to grow others.

For some reason the US government thinks you just throw money are problems instead of letting the free market fix itself for free. And now congress thinks it knows better then I do how to spend my money.

Foster care is state-run too. If we want to be so cruel about it, the only way to efficiently stop welfare babies is with mandatory abortions. Since no-one is willing to do that, welfare benefits for children is the most humane way to do it

Do you know what we did when we didn't have legal abortions nor welfare benefits?

It was called 'adoption'. In the US, over 10% of all children were given away by poor parents and given to those that could not have kids or wanted more.

Maybe we need to consider revising our laws and encouraging adoption as a middle path - no required abortions, less welfare. We've regulated adoption to make it nearly impossible for those that want it.

I was under the assumption that adoption rates were far lower than would be necessary to alleviate the problem all on its own

Adoption would certainly be yet more efficient, but for whatever reason i was under the assumption that the will isn't the

No.  It is.... for babies.

See the thing with adoption is, we have a great undersupply of babies to the point where people basically buy babies either here or overseas via differnet tactics.....


It just doesn't seem that way because of all the kids in orphanages.  Sad truth is, everyone wants a baby and almost nobody wants a kid that already has someone elses "fingerprints" on them.


From my (very limited) understanding, up until the child is "school aged" they are in high demand but after that demand (essentially) disappears ...



HappySqurriel said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
mrstickball said:
Mr Khan said:
kain_kusanagi said:
I want a low flat tax with no loop holes that everyone has to pay no matter how rich or poor. And I don't want bloated government or "stimulus" bull crap. The government should be as small as possible and stay out of our lives. All we need government for is law and order, defense, and public safety.

We don't need half of the government agencies we have. We need to stop spending tax payer's money on art grants and scholarships. We also don't need to keep taking care of 3rd and 4th generation welfare slackers. If you can't find a job and you're not disabled then I say we put you to work doing the same stuff inmates do in work release. No free handouts. I'm also tired of my tax dollars going to parents that can't take care of their kids and keep having more kids just to get more money. If you can't take care of your kids, guess what, they go to foster care until you can. The US government really needs to stop paying farmers NOT to grow certain crops and pays them to grow others.

For some reason the US government thinks you just throw money are problems instead of letting the free market fix itself for free. And now congress thinks it knows better then I do how to spend my money.

Foster care is state-run too. If we want to be so cruel about it, the only way to efficiently stop welfare babies is with mandatory abortions. Since no-one is willing to do that, welfare benefits for children is the most humane way to do it

Do you know what we did when we didn't have legal abortions nor welfare benefits?

It was called 'adoption'. In the US, over 10% of all children were given away by poor parents and given to those that could not have kids or wanted more.

Maybe we need to consider revising our laws and encouraging adoption as a middle path - no required abortions, less welfare. We've regulated adoption to make it nearly impossible for those that want it.

I was under the assumption that adoption rates were far lower than would be necessary to alleviate the problem all on its own

Adoption would certainly be yet more efficient, but for whatever reason i was under the assumption that the will isn't the

No.  It is.... for babies.

See the thing with adoption is, we have a great undersupply of babies to the point where people basically buy babies either here or overseas via differnet tactics.....


It just doesn't seem that way because of all the kids in orphanages.  Sad truth is, everyone wants a baby and almost nobody wants a kid that already has someone elses "fingerprints" on them.


From my (very limited) understanding, up until the child is "school aged" they are in high demand but after that demand (essentially) disappears ...

You could be right, really just the point is that there is plenty of demand for adoption... it just doesn't seem that way due to all the kids.



The op is sadly mistaken on the benefits of government spending and is clearly using theoretical Keynesian numbers vs real world numbers.

However government spending does artificially increase gdp which isn't a bad thing in a recession. Of course government can't stop spending after the recession which is why Keynesian theories are not workable in real world scenarios.



Kasz216 said:
HappySqurriel said:


From my (very limited) understanding, up until the child is "school aged" they are in high demand but after that demand (essentially) disappears ...

You could be right, really just the point is that there is plenty of demand for adoption... it just doesn't seem that way due to all the kids.


Generally, its very difficult to adopt up to about 2 or 3 years old. After that, the desire to adopt drops off - especially when it is a baby of a minority ethnicity.

A good example of our adoption system is told to us by Tony Dungy, former head coach of the Indianapolis Colts. He and his family have adopted multiple children in their lives. When they went to adopt their first boy, the case worker told them it would take 3 years and cost tens of thousands of dollars. When she asked what age they wanted for their white baby (the Dungys are black, FWIW), Tony and his wife told the worker that they simply wanted to adopt, and any child of any race was fine. The case worker's response was "We thought you wanted a white baby. If you are okay with a black baby, you can take one home today.'.

Here is a whitepaper on adoption statistics from 1957-current. According to their data, less adoptions take place today than in 1970, despite the fact that US population has increased considerably: http://www.sagepub.com/upm-data/13653_Chapter3.pdf

Of course, the crest being the year before Roe v. Wade was introduced.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.