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Forums - General - Vatican and Red Cross Helped Thousands of Nazis Escape Justice

sapphi_snake on 31 May 2011
Kasz216 said:


Come up with something that you think would of caused less casualties... though yeah... their foodlines would of been cut.  Any idea how many people starve when they can't access any food for months?

Heck, look at the death tolls that happened after the war due to starvation.  It would of been thousands of times worse... because even the amount people received weekly wouldn't be able to arrive... heck the very first thing the allies did when they took over japan was to greatly enhance the Japanese food distribution network... cause the people had already been starving for 2 years and refused to surrender.  This isn't even counting the inevitable deaths by bombing.

10 Million people were estimated to die AFTER they surrendered due to starvation... an estimate made by Japanese historians.

So... yeah... 70 million not as unheard of as you'd think.  Except it wouldn't of been 70 million since that was about the population of japan at the time.  So more like 52 million. 

1/5th that was already in severe risk of starvation.

Though lets just stick with this 10 million number.  Which would of been worse?  10 million starving?  Or the two nuclear bombs?

Of course... this is getting off the topic that you were wrong and made half cocked allegations based on an article.

No one, no one has ever made such a ludicrous claim that 3/4 of Japan's population would've died in the case of an invasion. It's just impossible, unless the US army deliberately started killing civilians. And I honestly don't think that either solution was good. The negative side effects of the bombs, plus their symbolic meaning were certainly not good.

I also don't see how I made any wrong allegations. The Vatican helped Nazis escape. That's what the book says.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

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                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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S____M____C____C on 31 May 2011

This is ridiculous, as I first suspected.

See, I've just started revising for my A-Level History exam, and conveniently, half of it is on Nazi Germany.

Factually, the Nazis frequently attacked Roman Catholic Church Property, abused Bishops/Pastors and carried out massive propagand campaigns trying to denoucne the RC Church - especially in the late 30s and in the War years.  The Pope condemned the Nazis publically in a letter in 1937 and the Nazis limited and tried to shut down RC educational/activity groups for the young. They really didn't get along. 

So, maybe the RC Church was pressurised into this for some reason or another. Who knows? But linking the RC Church to the Nazis is not fair whatsoever. 



Kasz216 on 31 May 2011
sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:


Come up with something that you think would of caused less casualties... though yeah... their foodlines would of been cut.  Any idea how many people starve when they can't access any food for months?

Heck, look at the death tolls that happened after the war due to starvation.  It would of been thousands of times worse... because even the amount people received weekly wouldn't be able to arrive... heck the very first thing the allies did when they took over japan was to greatly enhance the Japanese food distribution network... cause the people had already been starving for 2 years and refused to surrender.  This isn't even counting the inevitable deaths by bombing.

10 Million people were estimated to die AFTER they surrendered due to starvation... an estimate made by Japanese historians.

So... yeah... 70 million not as unheard of as you'd think.  Except it wouldn't of been 70 million since that was about the population of japan at the time.  So more like 52 million. 

1/5th that was already in severe risk of starvation.

Though lets just stick with this 10 million number.  Which would of been worse?  10 million starving?  Or the two nuclear bombs?

Of course... this is getting off the topic that you were wrong and made half cocked allegations based on an article.

No one, no one has ever made such a ludicrous claim that 3/4 of Japan's population would've died in the case of an invasion. It's just impossible, unless the US army deliberately started killing civilians. And I honestly don't think that either solution was good. The negative side effects of the bombs, plus their symbolic meaning were certainly not good.

I also don't see how I made any wrong allegations. The Vatican helped Nazis escape. That's what the book says.

That isn't what the book says.  The book says people IN the vatican helped nazis escape.

If Lebron James shoots your mother... the Miami heat did not shoot your mother.  Lebron James did.

 

As for the population statement.  Again... look at their situation.  They had very little food, and would of had no way of transporting it.... 10 million people would of died  or 14% of their population within months.... and as the blockade stretched on things would of gotten worse.

 

As for "No solutions were good."  Seems hypocritical to complain when you can't even think of a more preferable option.

Give the options avaible, it was the best opiton... you can't fault someone for taking the best option for all involved because it was a shitty option.

All other options were shittier.



sapphi_snake on 31 May 2011
Kasz216 said:

That isn't what the book says.  The book says people IN the vatican helped nazis escape.

If Lebron James shoots your mother... the Miami heat did not shoot your mother.  Lebron James did.

 

As for the population statement.  Again... look at their situation.  They had very little food, and would of had no way of transporting it.... 10 million people would of died  or 14% of their population within months.... and as the blockade stretched on things would of gotten worse.

 

As for "No solutions were good."  Seems hypocritical to complain when you can't even think of a more preferable option.

Give the options avaible, it was the best opiton... you can't fault someone for taking the best option for all involved because it was a shitty option.

All other options were shittier.

It seems hard to beleive that eventually the officials in the Vartican didn't eventually find out abotu what was going on. And I don't remember them makign a fuss about it, or turning in the bishops who helped Nazis (then again, they also protect paedhohiles, so...). Also, the Vatican is responsable for the actions of the people affiliated with it (the part is representative of the whole and all that). It's not really the same with the Miami Heat.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Kasz216 on 31 May 2011
S____M____C____C said:

This is ridiculous, as I first suspected.

See, I've just started revising for my A-Level History exam, and conveniently, half of it is on Nazi Germany.

Factually, the Nazis frequently attacked Roman Catholic Church Property, abused Bishops/Pastors and carried out massive propagand campaigns trying to denoucne the RC Church - especially in the late 30s and in the War years.  The Pope condemned the Nazis publically in a letter in 1937 and the Nazis limited and tried to shut down RC educational/activity groups for the young. They really didn't get along. 

So, maybe the RC Church was pressurised into this for some reason or another. Who knows? But linking the RC Church to the Nazis is not fair whatsoever. 

Well yeah, they were next in line after the jews and consentration camps.  General postware documents showed they were basically planning an antipope situation.  Well assuming the current pope couldn't be persuaded to replace catholicsim with the "Religion of Germany."

He wanted to transition people away from god and instead into worshiping the state of Germany. 

Hitler at his "most free" seemed to be an atheist, while more political seemed to be more of a deist and rarely a christian deist as to appease the majority christian country.

While most high ranking nazis were mystics.

A theistic religion is basically the anti-thesis to facism and dictatorships because it basically underminds the dictators authority since there is always somone "above" he can't pass.

It's why the Church had such issues with Liberation Theology in South America during the Cold War.



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Kasz216 on 31 May 2011
sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:

That isn't what the book says.  The book says people IN the vatican helped nazis escape.

If Lebron James shoots your mother... the Miami heat did not shoot your mother.  Lebron James did.

 

As for the population statement.  Again... look at their situation.  They had very little food, and would of had no way of transporting it.... 10 million people would of died  or 14% of their population within months.... and as the blockade stretched on things would of gotten worse.

 

As for "No solutions were good."  Seems hypocritical to complain when you can't even think of a more preferable option.

Give the options avaible, it was the best opiton... you can't fault someone for taking the best option for all involved because it was a shitty option.

All other options were shittier.

It seems hard to beleive that eventually the officials in the Vartican didn't eventually find out abotu what was going on. And I don't remember them makign a fuss about it, or turning in the bishops who helped Nazis (then again, they also protect paedhohiles, so...). Also, the Vatican is responsable for the actions of the people affiliated with it (the part is representative of the whole and all that). It's not really the same with the Miami Heat.


A) David Stern would disagree with you.

B) They were setting up a giant humanitarian effort to make sure people didn't starve.  You'd be surprised how complicated and hard shit can be... see the Red Cross... letting shit tons of Nazis escape without pretty much anybody knowing till later.  Why would the Church officials know when the Red Cross didn't.

C) Hudal specifically was angry that the Church didn't do anything for the Nazis.

D) They kicked Hudal out of the church... as for why nobody prosecuted him... ask the Hague.  I'd guess the allies didn't want to prosecute people they may have approached for smuggling out Nazis.

E) Your just wrong... admit it... don't try and weasel out of it.