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Forums - General - Life of Pi

sapphi_snake said:
Bong Lover said:

The stories are parallell explainations. Two different possible stories for what have happened. The book doesn't point to either one being true or false. Pi himself goes out of his way to present the 'realistic' story as an alternative that is easier for the interegators to accept.

The point of the book is not to decide which story is true and which one is not really. Neither is it a defence for religious delusion as someone else says in this thread. The point of the book is basically what thew author says, if you look for the realistic and 'true' in everything you miss the better story.

I think anyone can agree that the story about the animals is more compelling than the grim and realistic account of the mad chef and the wild supressed nature of Pi. So when the author says that the book is a story that will make you want to believe in God, this is what he alludes to. You want the story of the tiger to be true, because it is a much better story. Applying this to other aspects of life the message of the book basically says that if you only focusing on 'facts', 'scientific explanantion' and such presise explanations of things you will miss the better story.

I think the book is great, and accomplishes it's goal in wanting you to believe the story of Richard Parker.

But the book is a defence of religious dellusion. As you yourself stated it makes you want to believe the false story (it's obvious that the first story is false), because it sounds better. This in itself is promoting delusion. You use words like "realistic" and "true" as if they were some dirty words.  The only story that matters is the true one, not the made-up one (which is made up by someone, it doesn't exist otherwise, and anyone can come up with an outrageous story).

  The author also (unwillingly) presents the dangers of such delusions: the ability to commit an attrocicty, without having to suffer any consiquences for it.

No, the book is a story about seeing past a strict realistic explanation. It's about looking for the more fantastic story.

Obviously, for people who subscribe to a Ayn Rand like conviction that reality can not be subjective and that "A is A" as she puts it will reject this view. For those who do they do indeed often miss the better story.

So, I think it's unfair to call it a defence of religious delusion. Pavel converts to and practises all three world religions, and so the book is more a defense for the concept of looking for alternative explanations. It's basically a defense of approaching reality with a creative outlook rather than a stricktly mechanic outlook. The reason why religion is even a part of this book the way I see it is because it is a universal frame for alternative explanations. It is used as the model for creating fantastic stories. And that is what the author defends. The ability of the human mind to be creative and look for different and fantastic stories or explanations.



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NotStan said:

Admittedly I do love the story of Richard Parker considerably more, but the way author leaves the ending, showing essentially a fork towards two completely opposite spectrums, in terms of likeability I like the first one more, but I am leaning towards the latter as a more plausible story, but that's just me and my pessimism in the world I guess.


That is presisely the point of the book. One story is plausible, but the other story is better. In the 'real' world, none of these stories are true. They are both made up. The fact that you would like more for the Richard Parker story to be true than the mundane story of a ship wreck is the whole point of the book: By looking at the more plausible explanation you will miss the better story.



Bong Lover said:

No, the book is a story about seeing past a strict realistic explanation. It's about looking for the more fantastic story.

Obviously, for people who subscribe to a Ayn Rand like conviction that reality can not be subjective and that "A is A" as she puts it will reject this view. For those who do they do indeed often miss the better story.

So, I think it's unfair to call it a defence of religious delusion. Pavel converts to and practises all three world religions, and so the book is more a defense for the concept of looking for alternative explanations. It's basically a defense of approaching reality with a creative outlook rather than a stricktly mechanic outlook. The reason why religion is even a part of this book the way I see it is because it is a universal frame for alternative explanations. It is used as the model for creating fantastic stories. And that is what the author defends. The ability of the human mind to be creative and look for different and fantastic stories or explanations.

Except the only thing that matter is whether the explanations are right or not. Reality is not subjective, only the perception of reality is. The fact that we, for wahtever reason (like madness for example) may experience reality different than it really is, does not mean that reality changes.

Also, Pi did not percieve anything differently, he made the story up, and convinced himself that it was true, in order to not have to suffer the consiquences of the attrocities he witnessed, and the attrocities he commited himself. It's a sort of doublethink, like in Nineteen Eighty-Four, and such a way of thinking is very dangerous.

Explanations aren't invented, and that's exactly what this "creative outlook" leads too. Explanations are discovered. You don't find answers by making up feel-good fairy tales in your mind. Religion came to be as an explanation to the world, when people had no way of knowing it. Religion offers no real answers, just made-up ones. Creativity has it's place (entertainment, transmiting ideeas, science etc.), but it should not be used to build reality, which is what Pi does. This story perfectly supports religious delusion.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Bong Lover said:
NotStan said:

Admittedly I do love the story of Richard Parker considerably more, but the way author leaves the ending, showing essentially a fork towards two completely opposite spectrums, in terms of likeability I like the first one more, but I am leaning towards the latter as a more plausible story, but that's just me and my pessimism in the world I guess.


That is presisely the point of the book. One story is plausible, but the other story is better. In the 'real' world, none of these stories are true. They are both made up. The fact that you would like more for the Richard Parker story to be true than the mundane story of a ship wreck is the whole point of the book: By looking at the more plausible explanation you will miss the better story.

The shipwreck story isn't "mundane", it's grousome. No one wants such a story to be true, however in the REAL world, you can't just cover your ears, close your eyes, and make up fairy-tales, while ignoring that terrible things are happening around you.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Huh, i actually read this one too

I thought it was just something he made up off the cuff to satisfy the interrogaters. The religion allegory is certainly there, but my thoughts are that the first way has to be true, otherwise the entire book gives exactly the wrong message about religion, compared to, say, the buildup it gave for the role of spirituality in Pi's life earlier on.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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Mr Khan said:

Huh, i actually read this one too

I thought it was just something he made up off the cuff to satisfy the interrogaters. The religion allegory is certainly there, but my thoughts are that the first way has to be true, otherwise the entire book gives exactly the wrong message about religion, compared to, say, the buildup it gave for the role of spirituality in Pi's life earlier on.

Pi was delusional throughout the book. For example the instance when he's afraid to debate with that atheist guy, because he knows that his beliefs will be defeated. The author simply unwillingly portrays the dangers of religion, and how simply ridiculous it is. Not to mention that he supports keeping poor animals in zoos, like sideshow attractions for humans.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
Bong Lover said:

No, the book is a story about seeing past a strict realistic explanation. It's about looking for the more fantastic story.

Obviously, for people who subscribe to a Ayn Rand like conviction that reality can not be subjective and that "A is A" as she puts it will reject this view. For those who do they do indeed often miss the better story.

So, I think it's unfair to call it a defence of religious delusion. Pavel converts to and practises all three world religions, and so the book is more a defense for the concept of looking for alternative explanations. It's basically a defense of approaching reality with a creative outlook rather than a stricktly mechanic outlook. The reason why religion is even a part of this book the way I see it is because it is a universal frame for alternative explanations. It is used as the model for creating fantastic stories. And that is what the author defends. The ability of the human mind to be creative and look for different and fantastic stories or explanations.

Except the only thing that matter is whether the explanations are right or not. Reality is not subjective, only the perception of reality is. The fact that we, for wahtever reason (like madness for example) may experience reality different than it really is, does not mean that reality changes.

Also, Pi did not percieve anything differently, he made the story up, and convinced himself that it was true, in order to not have to suffer the consiquences of the attrocities he witnessed, and the attrocities he commited himself. It's a sort of doublethink, like in Nineteen Eighty-Four, and such a way of thinking is very dangerous.

Explanations aren't invented, and that's exactly what this "creative outlook" leads too. Explanations are discovered. You don't find answers by making up feel-good fairy tales in your mind. Religion came to be as an explanation to the world, when people had no way of knowing it. Religion offers no real answers, just made-up ones. Creativity has it's place (entertainment, transmiting ideeas, science etc.), but it should not be used to build reality, which is what Pi does. This story perfectly supports religious delusion.

As I pointed out, the bolded objectivist view is in obvious conflict with the book. I don't know that it makes much sense to go into a discussion of the merits of that world view in the context of the book. Obviously the point of the book is to offer an alternative to this stringent interpretations of reality. Not necessarily to reject that reality exsists outside of our perception, but rather to allow for stories and imagination in how we interact with reality.

The book doesn't make any assertions on what story is 'true'. It is not the point of the book. It's quite possible that Pi knows that the story of Richard Parker is fictious, and yet decides to tell it anyway. It is also quite possible that the story of Richard Parker is true, and the more believable tale is made up by the way. After all, it's just a book and none of the stories are really true.

If you choose to read the book as an invitation to disregard what happens and make up your own story and go with it I think you are missing the point of it. Also, as I am sure you are aware of, your assumption that reality is not subjective is just an assumption. It can never be proved or disproved and is of course one of the major topics of philosophy.



sapphi_snake said:
Mr Khan said:

Huh, i actually read this one too

I thought it was just something he made up off the cuff to satisfy the interrogaters. The religion allegory is certainly there, but my thoughts are that the first way has to be true, otherwise the entire book gives exactly the wrong message about religion, compared to, say, the buildup it gave for the role of spirituality in Pi's life earlier on.

Pi was delusional throughout the book. For example the instance when he's afraid to debate with that atheist guy, because he knows that his beliefs will be defeated. The author simply unwillingly portrays the dangers of religion, and how simply ridiculous it is. Not to mention that he supports keeping poor animals in zoos, like sideshow attractions for humans.

Unless the author was trying to portray him as unsympathetic and backwards the whole time, it went completely over my head.

That's why i'm leery about books too heavy on symbolism or allegory. A cigar is a cigar to me. Part of the reason for my enduring hatred of "Catcher in the Rye"



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Bong Lover said:

As I pointed out, the bolded objectivist view is in obvious conflict with the book. I don't know that it makes much sense to go into a discussion of the merits of that world view in the context of the book. Obviously the point of the book is to offer an alternative to this stringent interpretations of reality. Not necessarily to reject that reality exsists outside of our perception, but rather to allow for stories and imagination in how we interact with reality.

The book doesn't make any assertions on what story is 'true'. It is not the point of the book. It's quite possible that Pi knows that the story of Richard Parker is fictious, and yet decides to tell it anyway. It is also quite possible that the story of Richard Parker is true, and the more believable tale is made up by the way. After all, it's just a book and none of the stories are really true.

If you choose to read the book as an invitation to disregard what happens and make up your own story and go with it I think you are missing the point of it. Also, as I am sure you are aware of, your assumption that reality is not subjective is just an assumption. It can never be proved or disproved and is of course one of the major topics of philosophy.

The worldview presented in the book is a bunch of nonsense, that's not even worth taking into consideration. I was going by the structure of the book, and what it was trying to say. It supports delision (which is also what this dangerous worldview it promotes does).

Let's have an experiment. Shoot surself and see whether or not your death is objective.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Mr Khan said:
sapphi_snake said:
Mr Khan said:

Huh, i actually read this one too

I thought it was just something he made up off the cuff to satisfy the interrogaters. The religion allegory is certainly there, but my thoughts are that the first way has to be true, otherwise the entire book gives exactly the wrong message about religion, compared to, say, the buildup it gave for the role of spirituality in Pi's life earlier on.

Pi was delusional throughout the book. For example the instance when he's afraid to debate with that atheist guy, because he knows that his beliefs will be defeated. The author simply unwillingly portrays the dangers of religion, and how simply ridiculous it is. Not to mention that he supports keeping poor animals in zoos, like sideshow attractions for humans.

Unless the author was trying to portray him as unsympathetic and backwards the whole time, it went completely over my head.

That's why i'm leery about books too heavy on symbolism or allegory. A cigar is a cigar to me. Part of the reason for my enduring hatred of "Catcher in the Rye"

The author was trying something, but managed to do the opposite. He wasn't trying to present him as unsimpathetic, but analyzing the book carefully, that's the only way you can view him. Quit frankly, the author himself seems like a delusional jerk, just like his character.

As for The Cathcer in the Rye: Holden has mental problems, due to his  inability to accept the faults of adults, and move on from the "innocence" of childhood.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)