i dont see why the Zelda games dont fit this type of game mechanic. You have exploration, you obtain items that make new paths available.
i dont see why the Zelda games dont fit this type of game mechanic. You have exploration, you obtain items that make new paths available.
| Ninpanda said: Phantom 2040 for the Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis and Sega Game Gear.
It's like five bucks on eBay. Check it out. I just talked about this very game a few hours ago in another thread. I feel like a promotional whore. |
All my research for this game makes it seem like ithas similar gameplay and free-roaming progression to Super Metroid, but doesn't focus on the item collection and instead makes that secondary. But from everything I can tell from watching gameplay, its definitely a Super Metroid clone and I'm gonna add it.
| Silver-Tiger said: What about Oddworld? the 2D ones I mean, Oddysee and Exodus. If you count these then you might count Flashback also. Else I can only think of Blaze & Blade: Eternal Quest for the PSX. |
I've never played Oddworld. But from my research it looks like the game is closer to the gameplay of something like Prince of Persia. Which does feature free roaming exploration and a focus on platforming, but no item progression. For now, I'm going to put it under Cross Genre.
Blaze & Blade: Eternal Quest looks more like a dungeon crawler. A mixture of something like Baulders Gate and Seiken Densetsu.
Once again, thanks everybody for the ideas. The list is growing! I've already found a handful of new games I wanna try. Hopefully others will as well.
there's also freeware (don't be fooled by the term) Eternal Daughter, which was made by the same guy that contributed with Aquaria, it's on the list here: http://www.derekyu.com/games.html it's basically a Metroidvania, including the quick backstep.
the words above were backed by NUCLEAR WEAPONS!
It's been a while since i've played AC and Infamous.
but i'm a little confused how Assassin's Creed and Infamous fit into some of these categories as far as i know none of the Items you gather in these game opens up new areas in the same way that super missiles or space jump boots helps you reach new areas in metroid games.
As for Batman Arkham Asylum, it is very metroid inspired but the game has like no platforming at all, or perhaps i classify platforming differently.
I think your criterias for what a metroid game is are slightly off.
another game, Muramasa is really really and i mean really really metroid-lite, there are no puzzles in that game and i wouldnt call it a freeroaming/open world type of game, i wouldnt even call it a platforming game
cr00mz said:
It's been a while since i've played AC and Infamous. but i'm a little confused how Assassin's Creed and Infamous fit into some of these categories as far as i know none of the Items you gather in these game opens up new areas in the same way that super missiles or space jump boots helps you reach new areas in metroid games. As for Batman Arkham Asylum, it is very metroid inspired but the game has like no platforming at all, or perhaps i classify platforming differently. I think your criterias for what a metroid game is are slightly off. another game, Muramasa is really really and i mean really really metroid-lite, there are no puzzles in that game and i wouldnt call it a freeroaming/open world type of game, i wouldnt even call it a platforming game |
Well, I've kind of covered it in previous posts. But Assassins Creed 1 definitely fits into the above classifications. You have straight Item Progression that unlocks new areas to explore (new weapon/skill unlocked after every mission). As well as being able to freely explore all unlocked areas. Assassins Creed II admittedly focuses more on the exploration than item progression, but its still there.
And I would argue that Batman: Arkham Asylum has no platforming. Aside from the fighting engine, which is indeed more of a brawler and stealth system, I'd say a good 50% of the game is using the batclaw and other items to climb, shimmy and crawl your way through the different areas. You also have the straight item progression found in games like Metroid Prime and Assassins Creed. Getting a new item allows for you to explore new areas. And there's certainly a Metroid like aspect to exploring the world, complete with Interview Tapes and Riddler Clues to collect.
Also, I'd venture to say Muramasa is the 'next evolution' in the style of what Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night did. Yes, it doesn't have puzzles, but it focused almost purely on the blend of action/exploration those other games pioneered. It also has the straight item Progression of other examples with new swords unlocking new areas. As well as sequence breaking. If it doesn't fit in this genre, than it would probably begin a whole new genre. But considering most people call this the 'Action/Platformer' genre, I don't know any other way to describe Muramasa.
Also, I agree, its hard to classify these games. I suppose the simplest way to describe them is, they have a focus on platforming, item based progression and a free roaming aspect. Some, like SotN and Muramasa, don't have puzzles. And others, especially the 3D games, have a lot more going on than just what makes a 'Metroid' formula. I would even venture to argue that Metroid Prime isn't the same as the 2D Metroids. But t does clearly focus on platforming, item progression and a free roaming world.
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
Well, I've kind of covered it in previous posts. But Assassins Creed 1 definitely fits into the above classifications. You have straight Item Progression that unlocks new areas to explore (new weapon/skill unlocked after every mission). As well as being able to freely explore all unlocked areas. Assassins Creed II admittedly focuses more on the exploration than item progression, but its still there. And I would argue that Batman: Arkham Asylum has no platforming. Aside from the fighting engine, which is indeed more of a brawler and stealth system, I'd say a good 50% of the game is using the batclaw and other items to climb, shimmy and crawl your way through the different areas. You also have the straight item progression found in games like Metroid Prime and Assassins Creed. Getting a new item allows for you to explore new areas. And there's certainly a Metroid like aspect to exploring the world, complete with Interview Tapes and Riddler Clues to collect. Also, I'd venture to say Muramasa is the 'next evolution' in the style of what Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night did. Yes, it doesn't have puzzles, but it focused almost purely on the blend of action/exploration those other games pioneered. It also has the straight item Progression of other examples with new swords unlocking new areas. As well as sequence breaking. If it doesn't fit in this genre, than it would probably begin a whole new genre. But considering most people call this the 'Action/Platformer' genre, I don't know any other way to describe Muramasa. Also, I agree, its hard to classify these games. I suppose the simplest way to describe them is, they have a focus on platforming, item based progression and a free roaming aspect. Some, like SotN and Muramasa, don't have puzzles. And others, especially the 3D games, have a lot more going on than just what makes a 'Metroid' formula. I would even venture to argue that Metroid Prime isn't the same as the 2D Metroids. But t does clearly focus on platforming, item progression and a free roaming world. |
But the thing about Assassin's Creed and Infamous is that the skills you get are not necessary (unless i'm mistaken) whereas in metroid game they are required for reaching new areas. Without the Thermal Visor you wouldnt be able to face Thardus, he rewards you with the spider ball ability, that lets you access new areas.
the throwing dagger does not function in the same way that they are required to progress further in the game. You dont come across a obstacle that requires you to use the dagger, and then you eventually get you can pass that section (again long time since i played Assassin's Creed so i might be wrong)*
The same goes for Infamous, its basically a GTA with superpowers except slightly more linear. and again the powers you gain, dont necessarily open up areas that you couldn't get to before. they are just sort of a bonus for progressing the story.
I can slightly agree on muramasa though i still feel its a very lite metroid-esque game
Metroid Prime does lack some feature that the 2D metroid have, but the core gameplay is still there, what defines metroid the most is that unlike some of the games you've mentioned its a pretty non-linear game. To compare to infamous, you have 1 city, divided into 3 islands. To complete the game you go through each of those islands linearly once you complete the first level (island) you move on to the next one, since its a free roam game you can still return there, but as for the story goes, that island is now dead. its finished. and so you move on to the next one.
Compare this to most metroid games that i mentioned feature a non-linear style of gameplay in that, say similarly to infamous you have this 1 world, divided into 3 subworlds (infamous islands) but the thing is, once you kill the boss in the first world doenst mean you are completly done with it. it goes sort of like this World 1 > World 2 > World 1 > World 3 > World 2/1 etc.
again some of these games i havent played in a while so i might be a bit off.
As for Arkham Asylum i think it fits more in the Zelda category, since much like zelda it goes dungeon > overworld > dungeon > overworld. also if i'm not mistaken the items you get work similarly to zelda games in that you get them at the end of a dungeon or a reward of some sort to make you progress further.
A perfect example would be the Dampe race in OoT that rewards you with the Hookshot to be able to enter the Forest Temple, in Batman the example would be the Line Launcher after deafeting those 2 mutants in the Botanical Garden, without it you would not be able to get to where Posion Ivy is, plus there is no real platforming in the game, similar to Zelda games you have no jump button. And the platforming you do is mostly done with the grapple or for Zelda the hookshot, or whatever other platforming helping devices you have (Deku Flower in Majoras Mask, Deku Leaf in Wind Waker etc.)
And it too has a pretty open world, Hyrule in both Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time are really open (in Twilight Princess even more) not to forget the Great Sea from wind waker, and much like metroidvanias you unlock new paths with items you discover while progressing the story, Hookshot/claw shot opens up new paths in Twilight Princess/Ocarina of time/Majoras Mask/ A link to the past. I would also say that the Masks in Majoras Mask unlocks new areas for you.
Another item the titan mitt from A Link to the Past lets you accesss new areas by being able to lift those black/green rocks, that open up portals for you.
But unlike metroid games it follows a more linear path in that once you are done with a dungeon, you are done. there is no reason to go back. I think the same can be said for Arkham Asylum, unless you go back for riddles
@croomz
Again, its hard to classify the games. Even Zelda can be argued to fit into the same genre, though I wouldn't count it as the game focuses on puzzle solving and action over 'platforming'. Games like Ocarina/Wind Waker/Twilight feature limited platforming, but its not the core focus of the game engine.
For the other games, its really up to opinion. But I argue that, like Metroid Prime, games like Assassins Creed and Batman: Arkham have all the key ingredients for the genre. They're just handled slightly differently because its no longer a 2D pure platformer game, but now a 3D game. And even Prime/Other M had to change things to work in a 3D space.
Also, in the first Assassins Creed, you didn't have to use the throwing knives or even the sword. However, you still couldn't progress to a new area without getting the items.
Even if Metroid Prime/Other M changed a lot, they still kept the metroid feeling, (other m slightly less in some parts) but it still features a non-linear structure, the same can't be said for the other games.
Also about Assassin's Creed, the only items you aquire are the items you get when you Assassinate the targets, and you restore your rank. There are no other pick-ups in the game. There is more to item pick-ups in metroid than just what you get from the bosses.
Also as for in the first Assassins Creed, you didn't have to use the throwing knives or even the sword. However, you still couldn't progress to a new area without getting the items.
This, the same could be said for a lot of other games.
i would argue for that Batman Arkham Asylum has limited platforming aswell, i mean you can climb in Splinter Cell games, but you wouldnt classify that as a platforming game would you?
They're just handled slightly differently because its no longer a 2D pure platformer game, but now a 3D game.
this same could be said for the 2008 Prince of Persia then?
it features an open world, there is platforming, there are puzzles, and there are power ups (Elikas abilities) that let you reach areas you couldnt before
Another game Crackdown somewhat fits in the same formula. You have platforming, there are no puzzles but like Castlevania it has RPG elemets. It's a free roaming open world game. And powerups/pick ups are handled slightly differently.
To be able to progress further in the game you have to make yourself stronger, find new equipment that improves you (similar to most Metroid-eqsue games) and new weapons that help you tackle the rest of the story (again like metroid). The game is quite open, as in you could go anywhere right from the start, but whats suggested is to take out the Los Muertos first since they are weaker and everytime you kill a boss, you can pick up his weapon, a lot of the times the bosses carry new types of grenades, usually stronger ones that will make later boss easier, as in let you progress the story. Other times they carry grenade launchers/rocket launchers. Again items that will make the following bosses be easier, to be able to progress the story.
2 other games, Darksiders and Okami, which by everyone is considered some sort of Zelda-clones. Could also fit this category, I haven't personally played Darkisders but from what i've seen, heard and read, it basically Zelda games that is more combat oriented similar to God of War, but again i haven¨t played it so i might be wrong.
Okami on the other hand i have played, it too is compared to Zelda games, but it could fit in to the metroid category, based on some of the criterias.
It has an open world, which is free-roaming similar to the other games i've mentioned. It features platforming and puzzles, combat is not the main focus of the game. It has exploration and most importantly it features power ups (brushes) and equipment (the weapons, Beads Reflectors and Glaives) that you get once you complete certain things in the game,
With some of the items you can't progress without them, mainly the Brush techniques, but also some of the weapons. Snarling beast ( a reflector, one of the round-shield like looking weapons) for example which you get from the first boss, you can't progress through the game without it. From some of the criteras it does fit a metroid like game, but most people would argue that it is more of a Zelda game.
Like you mentioned Zelda games are pretty hard to define, some call it RPG, some call it Action-Adventure, but by some of these things i've mentioned it does fit with the metroid category. But no one would call a Zelda game metroid-like
I just think your criterias for what a metroid game is, is a bit too loose, or wide. Not specific enough.
Like people calling Metroid Prime a First Person Adventure, then what are games like the myst series and other similar games?. Should Uncharted be called a Third Person Platforming Shooter? i mean it has platforming and it has shooting, it controlls from the third person. Compare it to Gears of War that has no platforming (not sure on this one, haven't played it enough)
San Andreas had RPG like elements with the building up your characters skills, should it be called Third Person Shooting RPG? Is mass effect 2 a shooter, or a rpg? It's been a while since i've played mass effect 2, but i felt that it was a bit more linear than the first one, and the shooting mechanics had been improved while the rpgs elements of the game were trimmed down.
Also i'd argue for that Infamous is just as much a Platformer as GTA is a racing game
Again as you mentioned a lot games could fit a lot of different genres because of some element in their gameplay. I still think its important to really distinguish games that are metroid like from games that are just action or adventure.
here is a list of some metroidvanias
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Metroidvania
some of the games i've never heard of
here is another http://www.listal.com/list/metroidvania
@cr00mz
I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. Its hard to classify these games and you may have a different opinion than others. But also like I said, the games I put on the list seem to focus on three core things. To use one of your examples, the difference between Prince of Persia and Assassins Creed is Prince of Persia focuses almost exclusively on the puzzle solving and action side, while Assassins Creed focuses more on the 'three' key elements (item progression, platforming and free roaming). Yes, you can say Prince of Persia also had platforming and technically had free roaming, though a lot of times previous areas were closed off or not necessary to revisit. And Prince of Persia focused more on combining platforming with puzzles. Once again, kind of hitting on the Zelda genre.
I also think you're getting focused on the 'puzzle' aspect. As I brouhgt up in my last post, some noted 'Metrovanias' don't have puzzles, like most of the Castlevania games and Muramasa. Even Metroid has limited puzzle aspects like navigating bomb holes or hitting panels in a certain order. Clearly nothing on the level of say Zelda or Prince of Persia.
As another example, you have a game like Resident Evil. Its free roaming and has platforming aspects. But it focuses almost exclusively on the action and puzzles. And I doubt anyone would place it in the same genre as Metroid. That's why the 'Metrovania' genre is a sub-genre. A mixture of multiple genres, which its games itself also mix other genres. The original Metroid itself was suppose to blend aspects of Mario and Zelda with more focus on action.
| Kenryoku_Maxis said: @cr00mz the difference between Prince of Persia and Assassins Creed is Prince of Persia focuses almost exclusively on the puzzle solving and action side, while Assassins Creed focuses more on the 'three' key elements (item progression, platforming and free roaming). Yes, you can say Prince of Persia also had platforming and technically had free roaming, though a lot of times previous areas were closed off or not necessary to revisit. And Prince of Persia focused more on combining platforming with puzzles. |
I dont understand how you can call Assassin's Creed focused on item progression and Prince of Persia is not. The biggest differnece between their pickups is that the ones in Prince of Persia are actually needed to complete the game. In assassin's Creed they are not.
How does the bolded part also not fit Assassin's Creed? Again i havent played assassins creed for almost 2 years so i might not remember everything correctly.
But wasnt it that you started in Masyaf, and were only limited to that place until you progressed the story further. I think Damascus, Acre and Jerusalem were all closed off until progressing far enough into the game that they become unlocked?
In prince of persia, several if not all of the locations are pretty much closed off, untill you trigger that cut-scene that eventually opens up the game. And you are basically free to do the "mission", which is more freer (is that a word) than Assassin's Creed, in any order you want. Several of the locations are closed off until you can get those powers that let you progress through the story.
I wouldt exactly call the puzzles in prince of persia complex, they are pretty simple
Yes prince of persia focuses more on puzzles than Assassin's Creed, but didn't you say that Muramasa was a sort of "next evolution" of metroid-like game? a new style, wouldnt Prince of Persia fit into that category? It doesnt follow the metroid-style exactly but neither does muramasa
also i dont understand your comment about Resident Evil having platforming aspects. I've never finished a resident evil games (besides 4) but i have never heard of platforming in that series.