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Forums - Sony - And we are back to Square 1 as Sony implicates Anonymous to US House Probe

LivingMetal on 05 May 2011
thranx said:
LivingMetal said:
Grimes said:
LivingMetal said:
Grimes said:

You can write whatever you want in a ToS, but it has to be consistent with case law. If case law dictates that something is allowable, the ToS can't deny somebody that right. Therefore if case law determines that it is legal to hack a system, for example a cell phone, the ToS can't take that right away. Likewise, if the courts were to determine it's ok to hack a console, then the ToS could not deny a person that right.


So does this apply to Sony in regards to the PS3?

If you think about it, the PS3 is a computer, not really any different than a Mac or PC. You have the right to hack your Mac or PC as you like. Therefore, I believe the court would have probably ruled that the PS3 is a computer, therefore can be hacked. Then ToS can't be used to take that right away from the user.


So in this case, my point still stands.  Thanks.


Until someone can get another court case going the legality of it is up in the air. But given the fact that jailbreaking phones is perfectly legal, and hacking many other devices is legal, its pretty safe to assume that hacking your own console is legal also. Case law is kind of on the side of consumers in this one. But yes, its not set in stone either way.


I deal with facts and morals, not oxymorons to fuel an agenda.  But thanks all the same.



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Lyrikalstylez on 05 May 2011

Sony is just trying to blame the responsibility on someone else, sure it was the hackers fault but it was Sony's job to protect its customers which failed!! Its like depositing money in a bank and it gets robbed, the bank has to pay the money back!



LivingMetal on 05 May 2011
Grimes said:
LivingMetal said:
Grimes said:
LivingMetal said:
Grimes said:

You can write whatever you want in a ToS, but it has to be consistent with case law. If case law dictates that something is allowable, the ToS can't deny somebody that right. Therefore if case law determines that it is legal to hack a system, for example a cell phone, the ToS can't take that right away. Likewise, if the courts were to determine it's ok to hack a console, then the ToS could not deny a person that right.


So does this apply to Sony in regards to the PS3?

If you think about it, the PS3 is a computer, not really any different than a Mac or PC. You have the right to hack your Mac or PC as you like. Therefore, I believe the court would have probably ruled that the PS3 is a computer, therefore can be hacked. Then ToS can't be used to take that right away from the user.


So if this is the case, my point still stands.  Thanks.

To be honest, I don't even know what anybody is arguing anymore and care even less. But if you want to declare victory, go right on ahead. Have a parade.


I'll have a pizza and beer instead.  I'm buying.  You're more than welcome to join.



thranx on 05 May 2011
LivingMetal said:
thranx said:
LivingMetal said:
Grimes said:
LivingMetal said:
Grimes said:

You can write whatever you want in a ToS, but it has to be consistent with case law. If case law dictates that something is allowable, the ToS can't deny somebody that right. Therefore if case law determines that it is legal to hack a system, for example a cell phone, the ToS can't take that right away. Likewise, if the courts were to determine it's ok to hack a console, then the ToS could not deny a person that right.


So does this apply to Sony in regards to the PS3?

If you think about it, the PS3 is a computer, not really any different than a Mac or PC. You have the right to hack your Mac or PC as you like. Therefore, I believe the court would have probably ruled that the PS3 is a computer, therefore can be hacked. Then ToS can't be used to take that right away from the user.


So in this case, my point still stands.  Thanks.


Until someone can get another court case going the legality of it is up in the air. But given the fact that jailbreaking phones is perfectly legal, and hacking many other devices is legal, its pretty safe to assume that hacking your own console is legal also. Case law is kind of on the side of consumers in this one. But yes, its not set in stone either way.


I deal with facts and morals, not oxymorons to fuel an agenda.  But thanks all the same.

Thats great, was anyhting factually wrong in what I stated? For dealing with facts you sure dont use many. Morals? Who is being morally wrong here? How is doing something to what I own a moral wrong (not that i own a ps3 nor have i ever hacked anyhting)



o_O.Q on 05 May 2011

yup and as we all know the guys who were hacking ps3 before this all happened never had no effect on the network they were only concerned with modding their property thats why sony is in the wrong for going after them



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thranx on 05 May 2011
o_O.Q said:

yup and as we all know the guys who were hacking ps3 before this all happened never had no effect on the network they were only concerned with modding their property thats why sony is in the wrong for going after them


I am really not sure if you are being sarcastic or if you agree that its ok to hack your own hardare.



richardhutnik on 05 May 2011
o_O.Q said:

@grimes

why therefore are hackers banned from xbox live? isn't that violated their rights? from what you're saying they should be allowed to do whatever thet like right? including the recent scheme i saw recently with people using point generators

A company has a right to refuse additional service to a customer who does things with their equipment the company disagrees with and violates the terms and conditions of owning.  A company can say that any modified piece of equipment is not permitted on their network, for example.  The rights come in buying equipment with the assumption it will have features associated with it, and they won't be taken away.  For example, if Sony decided to disable backwards compatibility with the 60 GB PS3 I have, I would have issue with this, and very likely legal issues.



theprof00 on 05 May 2011
thranx said:

Thats great, was anyhting factually wrong in what I stated? For dealing with facts you sure dont use many. Morals? Who is being morally wrong here? How is doing something to what I own a moral wrong (not that i own a ps3 nor have i ever hacked anyhting)

You said that it's safe to assume that hacking a console is legal, citing pc and cellphones as reasoning.

You are making an argument based on a theory. Theory =|= fact.

We can talk all day about why pc and cell phones would be exceptions, and you can tell me how it's all the same. We'll never agree.

In the case of cell phones, it was decided that not allowing jailbreaking gave too much power to cell phone companies. In fact, the ruling on it is more related to the number-integrity case that happened a few years before in which it was decided by law that cell phones were required to let you take your own telephone number to a different carrier. The idea was that phone companies were locking people in unfairly by a customer losing their number.This is the same situation people with 600$ phones face today. Want to leave verizon because it's 100$/ month? Nope, not allowed, otherwise your phone is worthless. Cellphone jailbreaking ruling is consumer protection, not consumer rights.



o_O.Q on 05 May 2011

"A company has a right to refuse additional service to a customer who does things with their equipment they disagree with and violates the terms and conditions of owning" o_O huh?" "conditions of owning"? but i tought that when you own hardware you could do what you wanted with it? someone mentioned ps3s being similar to computers which are hacked all the time and as a result ps3s should also be allowed to be hacked... this is a very confusing issue... i mean since i bought it with my money i should be able to modify it so that i can go online and shoot guys through walls in CoD for example because its my property and i have the right



thranx on 05 May 2011
theprof00 said:
thranx said:

Thats great, was anyhting factually wrong in what I stated? For dealing with facts you sure dont use many. Morals? Who is being morally wrong here? How is doing something to what I own a moral wrong (not that i own a ps3 nor have i ever hacked anyhting)

You said that it's safe to assume that hacking a console is legal, citing pc and cellphones as reasoning.

You are making an argument based on a theory. Theory =|= fact.

We can talk all day about why pc and cell phones would be exceptions, and you can tell me how it's all the same. We'll never agree.

In the case of cell phones, it was decided that not allowing jailbreaking gave too much power to cell phone companies. In fact, the ruling on it is more related to the number-integrity case that happened a few years before in which it was decided by law that cell phones were required to let you take your own telephone number to a different carrier. The idea was that phone companies were locking people in unfairly by a customer losing their number.This is the same situation people with 600$ phones face today. Want to leave verizon because it's 100$/ month? Nope, not allowed, otherwise your phone is worthless. Cellphone jailbreaking ruling is consumer protection, not consumer rights.

I clearly stated it was up in the air in the first sentance. But given that all other case law that i have read allows you to hack your own equiptment i would lean towards hacking your console as ok also. But again it is not set in stone which i also said. Basically we really will not know unitl there is another court case, which i also said. Feel free to show me cases were people have been punished for hacking their own hardware. The more info i can get, the better  i can understand the situation.

 

if we can hack computers, and if people in sony think the ps3 is a computer than what are we supposed to think?

" "Speaking about the PS3, we never said we will release a game console," he said. "It is radically different from the previous PlayStation. It is clearly a computer. Indeed, with a game console, you need to take out any unnecessary elements inside the console in order to decrease its cost. ... This will of course apply to the PS3 as well."

""However, the PS3 is a computer," Kutaragi said. "Lowering costs is important but more important is its capacity to evolve. I think the HDD will gain in capacity. If a new technology gets into mainstream PCs, the PS3 will have to adopt it as well. Maybe the Blu-ray drive will become writable. Well, maybe not at this point.""

http://www.1up.com/news/hey-ps3-computer-game-system