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Forums - General - So, the French law opposing ninjas goes into effect.

Mr Khan on 11 April 2011
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

Sarkozy doubles his risk for assassination, and if the French equivalent to the secret service is prepared for Jihadist terrorist attack, they'll be blindsided by the Shinobi

 

It's an interesting law because it's one of those things that can get support from both the right and left. Left likes it because it liberates Muslim women, right likes it because it imposes French values on the immigrants.

Unless, their husbands just don't let them leave the house now.  Like Saudi Arabia.

That would certainly be harder to regulate...



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Lostplanet22 on 11 April 2011
Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

Sarkozy doubles his risk for assassination, and if the French equivalent to the secret service is prepared for Jihadist terrorist attack, they'll be blindsided by the Shinobi

 

It's an interesting law because it's one of those things that can get support from both the right and left. Left likes it because it liberates Muslim women, right likes it because it imposes French values on the immigrants.

Unless, their husbands just don't let them leave the house now.  Like Saudi Arabia.

That would certainly be harder to regulate...

If it was in Saudi Arabia yes....But in France who has enough organisations to help those women..they have a chance, and considering Europe is open they can even try to start a life in an other country.



 

Kasz216 on 11 April 2011
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:

I've said it once, and i'll say it again.

All the Burqa Ban does is hide the underlying issues so the French can feel good about themselves.

Which is generally the French's approach to sexism and racism.  Close your eyes and pretend everythings cool.


All this will do, is prevent women who were forced to where the Burqa from leaving their homes.  A real improvement.

While preventing those who wanted to wear it, to wear it.

 

Meanwhile, now those women who were going out into the world, are shut off more, and isolated more from society making it harder for them to break away.

Or, for the few who are treated in such a way and are let out... there is now no sign that they are beign mistreated.

 

Of course, there will be women forced to wear it anyway, and well, they'll be punished by the police, which is great... because that's what you want in society.  Laws that punish the victim.

Yes and like the law stated the husband can get a huge fine for it and probably other measures..

Try to answer this how come Turkey who banned the Burqa is one of the best muslim countries to live in for muslim women?  Coincidence?  If it wasn't for Erdogan the future for the Turkish women would be great.

It depends on if you consider correlation coincidence.

Enforce a Burqa ban in Saudi Arabia, and the women will be treated no better.  It's just Saudi Arabia wouldn't consider such a ban.

That's like asking if it's a coincidence that more resturants serve pork in turkey then everywhere else, and women's treatment is better.



Kasz216 on 11 April 2011
Lostplanet22 said:
Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

Sarkozy doubles his risk for assassination, and if the French equivalent to the secret service is prepared for Jihadist terrorist attack, they'll be blindsided by the Shinobi

 

It's an interesting law because it's one of those things that can get support from both the right and left. Left likes it because it liberates Muslim women, right likes it because it imposes French values on the immigrants.

Unless, their husbands just don't let them leave the house now.  Like Saudi Arabia.

That would certainly be harder to regulate...

If it was in Saudi Arabia yes....But in France who has enough organisations to help those women..they have a chance, and considering Europe is open they can even try to start a life in an other country.

If this is true, then the Burqa ban is superfluous.

If this isn't true, then it's going to be even harder for those women to reach  and find said orginizations... and a hell of a lot harder for these orginizations to find those women.


Which is it?



Lostplanet22 on 12 April 2011
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:

I've said it once, and i'll say it again.

All the Burqa Ban does is hide the underlying issues so the French can feel good about themselves.

Which is generally the French's approach to sexism and racism.  Close your eyes and pretend everythings cool.


All this will do, is prevent women who were forced to where the Burqa from leaving their homes.  A real improvement.

While preventing those who wanted to wear it, to wear it.

 

Meanwhile, now those women who were going out into the world, are shut off more, and isolated more from society making it harder for them to break away.

Or, for the few who are treated in such a way and are let out... there is now no sign that they are beign mistreated.

 

Of course, there will be women forced to wear it anyway, and well, they'll be punished by the police, which is great... because that's what you want in society.  Laws that punish the victim.

Yes and like the law stated the husband can get a huge fine for it and probably other measures..

Try to answer this how come Turkey who banned the Burqa is one of the best muslim countries to live in for muslim women?  Coincidence?  If it wasn't for Erdogan the future for the Turkish women would be great.

It depends on if you consider correlation coincidence.

Enforce a Burqa ban in Saudi Arabia, and the women will be treated no better.  It's just Saudi Arabia wouldn't consider such a ban.

That's like asking if it's a coincidence that more resturants serve pork in turkey then everywhere else, and women's treatment is better.

Not really, women in Burqa or who wear a headscarf never have been treated equal to men, people
always belief this is because it happens in (former) christian countries where people are biased against the muslim community but even in muslim countries the same problem occurs.  Ataturk's idea was that when you ban the burqa and even ban the abilty to veil yourself when working for state/public sector would increase the rights of the women in the long end and you can only have a good society where women and men are treated equal...  Yes the first years were hard and their were women who could not leave their house;.But in the end more women won their freedom and I recommend you to visit one of the bigger city's in the west of Turkey and have a talk about it, plenty of them will say that they can only live this free thx to the ban..

When a idiot says their doesn't exist an muslim country with a good society he will get the answer that he should look up the country called Turkey...Now the same people who gave that answer should look up why this is possible..



 

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Lostplanet22 on 12 April 2011
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

Sarkozy doubles his risk for assassination, and if the French equivalent to the secret service is prepared for Jihadist terrorist attack, they'll be blindsided by the Shinobi

 

It's an interesting law because it's one of those things that can get support from both the right and left. Left likes it because it liberates Muslim women, right likes it because it imposes French values on the immigrants.

Unless, their husbands just don't let them leave the house now.  Like Saudi Arabia.

That would certainly be harder to regulate...

If it was in Saudi Arabia yes....But in France who has enough organisations to help those women..they have a chance, and considering Europe is open they can even try to start a life in an other country.

If this is true, then the Burqa ban is superfluous.

If this isn't true, then it's going to be even harder for those women to reach  and find said orginizations... and a hell of a lot harder for these orginizations to find those women.


Which is it?

This has more to do about the future of France than today, France is an changing country and most French already respected the idea that the possibility exist that in 50 years France can become a muslim country, already today their are more mosques than churches and in cities the moslims are (becoming) the majority... but at the same time the rights for muslim women are becoming worse, and the numbers of fundamentalists are growing and it is getting harder for  Muslim women to live like the majority of the women do in Europe not because of the Europeans but because of the Muslim community doesn't except it,  the ban can help those muslim women who wants to live like other European women do...yes I am biast and prefer to support the women who are muslim and live like European women and are behind the ban than the ones who say to their 11 year old daughter that she has to wear a headscarf and that she has to listen to her brothers and nephews because they are boys.



 

Galaki on 12 April 2011

What about reversed burqa?



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The Fury on 12 April 2011
FaRmLaNd said:

Not a fan. If a man is so fundamentalist that he'd force his wife to wear the Burqa then he'd most likely not let the woman out of the house if she can't wear it.

Furthermore there certainly may be some women that would choose the wear it, who can't now. 

Plus if a woman really is being forced to wear it, punishing her with a fine doesn't make any sense. Find the people that are forcing them into it and prosecute them, but don't target the victims with fines. This just seems like a law that blames the victims.

As an atheist I certainly am not a fan of islam or any other religion, but freedom of religion is certainly something I support.

Part of the law states that if a man is found guilty of forcing someone to wear one the man will goto jail.



Hmm, pie.

Kasz216 on 12 April 2011
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:

I've said it once, and i'll say it again.

All the Burqa Ban does is hide the underlying issues so the French can feel good about themselves.

Which is generally the French's approach to sexism and racism.  Close your eyes and pretend everythings cool.


All this will do, is prevent women who were forced to where the Burqa from leaving their homes.  A real improvement.

While preventing those who wanted to wear it, to wear it.

 

Meanwhile, now those women who were going out into the world, are shut off more, and isolated more from society making it harder for them to break away.

Or, for the few who are treated in such a way and are let out... there is now no sign that they are beign mistreated.

 

Of course, there will be women forced to wear it anyway, and well, they'll be punished by the police, which is great... because that's what you want in society.  Laws that punish the victim.

Yes and like the law stated the husband can get a huge fine for it and probably other measures..

Try to answer this how come Turkey who banned the Burqa is one of the best muslim countries to live in for muslim women?  Coincidence?  If it wasn't for Erdogan the future for the Turkish women would be great.

It depends on if you consider correlation coincidence.

Enforce a Burqa ban in Saudi Arabia, and the women will be treated no better.  It's just Saudi Arabia wouldn't consider such a ban.

That's like asking if it's a coincidence that more resturants serve pork in turkey then everywhere else, and women's treatment is better.

Not really, women in Burqa or who wear a headscarf never have been treated equal to men, people
always belief this is because it happens in (former) christian countries where people are biased against the muslim community but even in muslim countries the same problem occurs.  Ataturk's idea was that when you ban the burqa and even ban the abilty to veil yourself when working for state/public sector would increase the rights of the women in the long end and you can only have a good society where women and men are treated equal...  Yes the first years were hard and their were women who could not leave their house;.But in the end more women won their freedom and I recommend you to visit one of the bigger city's in the west of Turkey and have a talk about it, plenty of them will say that they can only live this free thx to the ban..

When a idiot says their doesn't exist an muslim country with a good society he will get the answer that he should look up the country called Turkey...Now the same people who gave that answer should look up why this is possible..

Er?  No?  Again, your confusing correlation with causation.  You are talking about a concentrated effort to help women's rights, and then a law done in that claim, that probably had negative effects.

It's not the first time a law meant to enforce rights led too the opposite happening.

For example, france's "Colour blind" policy.  All that has done is allow racism to grow and descrimination to grow, without any official government official judging it.

Point out that a racial divide is growing, and they call you a racist.



Kasz216 on 12 April 2011
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

Sarkozy doubles his risk for assassination, and if the French equivalent to the secret service is prepared for Jihadist terrorist attack, they'll be blindsided by the Shinobi

 

It's an interesting law because it's one of those things that can get support from both the right and left. Left likes it because it liberates Muslim women, right likes it because it imposes French values on the immigrants.

Unless, their husbands just don't let them leave the house now.  Like Saudi Arabia.

That would certainly be harder to regulate...

If it was in Saudi Arabia yes....But in France who has enough organisations to help those women..they have a chance, and considering Europe is open they can even try to start a life in an other country.

If this is true, then the Burqa ban is superfluous.

If this isn't true, then it's going to be even harder for those women to reach  and find said orginizations... and a hell of a lot harder for these orginizations to find those women.


Which is it?

This has more to do about the future of France than today, France is an changing country and most French already respected the idea that the possibility exist that in 50 years France can become a muslim country, already today their are more mosques than churches and in cities the moslims are (becoming) the majority... but at the same time the rights for muslim women are becoming worse, and the numbers of fundamentalists are growing and it is getting harder for  Muslim women to live like the majority of the women do in Europe not because of the Europeans but because of the Muslim community doesn't except it,  the ban can help those muslim women who wants to live like other European women do...yes I am biast and prefer to support the women who are muslim and live like European women and are behind the ban than the ones who say to their 11 year old daughter that she has to wear a headscarf and that she has to listen to her brothers and nephews because they are boys.


So your dodging the question then.  Again.  If any of what your saying is true in that sentence, all this ban does is hinder the rights of fundamentalist muslim women and your goals, as it's harder to reach those women.