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Forums - Sony - Sony and Geohot reach a settlement

LivingMetal said:
ssj12 said:
LivingMetal said:
padib said:
LivingMetal said:
padib said:
LivingMetal said:
padib said:

things are far from over

http://www.techspot.com/news/43249-geohot-joins-anonymous-boycott-of-sony-asks-you-to-come-along.html

 

This. And him being banned from buying a SCEA product doesn't stop him from buying a Sony product, so a boycott of SONY products on his part is legitimate. He's a hacker, hackers don't just stop - they love a challenge. I knew there was more up his sleeve.


I don't see how boycotting a product will help his hacking skills.  But if he really needs a challenge, there's always mountain climbing.

Definitely mountain climbing as a challenge, and intellectual as he is he might even need it. ;)
But jokes aside, like I was referring to the article. It goes beyond the boycott, he's now part of Anonymous. That'll allow him to continue the fight on another front. It's not an anti-sony thing here, it really is an anti-conglomerate thing. If it was against apple I would've thought the same. It's a matter of philosophy more than anything really. I don't like the fact that the guy gets a) crushed by a large corporation, and b) no right to use what he lawfully owns in whatever way that legally pleases him. 

He never lawfully owned the software on the PS3.  Never.  So he got... "crushed."  So you are correct.

Okay smart-alec, define owned in "he never lawfully owned the software on the PS3". On the flip-side, did he own the PS3 hardware? Do you own yours? What elevates software above hardware such that you own one and not the other?

A little challenge for you ;)


The firmware?


Is owned by Sony until its installed onto your own hardware in which by rights can be removed yourself and install your own software onto.


But do I have the right to modify it that will cause potential financial harm to others.


That's Sony's problem actually. Which is easily solved by banning your console from their network.



PC gaming is better than console gaming. Always.     We are Anonymous, We are Legion    Kick-ass interview   Great Flash Series Here    Anime Ratings     Make and Play Please
Amazing discussion about being wrong
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ssj12 said:
padib said:
LivingMetal said:
padib said:
LivingMetal said:
padib said:

things are far from over

http://www.techspot.com/news/43249-geohot-joins-anonymous-boycott-of-sony-asks-you-to-come-along.html

 

This. And him being banned from buying a SCEA product doesn't stop him from buying a Sony product, so a boycott of SONY products on his part is legitimate. He's a hacker, hackers don't just stop - they love a challenge. I knew there was more up his sleeve.


I don't see how boycotting a product will help his hacking skills.  But if he really needs a challenge, there's always mountain climbing.

Definitely mountain climbing as a challenge, and intellectual as he is he might even need it. ;)
But jokes aside, like I was referring to the article. It goes beyond the boycott, he's now part of Anonymous. That'll allow him to continue the fight on another front. It's not an anti-sony thing here, it really is an anti-conglomerate thing. If it was against apple I would've thought the same. It's a matter of philosophy more than anything really. I don't like the fact that the guy gets a) crushed by a large corporation, and b) no right to use what he lawfully owns in whatever way that legally pleases him. 

He never lawfully owned the software on the PS3.  Never.  So he got... "crushed."  So you are correct.

Okay smart-alec, define owned in "he never lawfully owned the software on the PS3". On the flip-side, did he own the PS3 hardware? Do you own yours? What elevates software above hardware such that you own one and not the other?

A little challenge for you ;)

he is blinded by government propaganda that seems to want people to think companies own your souls and controls everything you do.  I guess civil rights is just something that a corporation allows for now. >.>


I'm libertarian so I believe in small government and less interference.   No one should trample on my rights.  People who work for corporations are also people who have rights as well.  No one shouldn't trample on their right to a livelihood by stealing their work.  Stop being blinded by self-righteousness.  I do not appreciate your disrespectful assumption.



Kasz216 said:
LivingMetal said:
padib said:
LivingMetal said:
padib said:
LivingMetal said:
padib said:

things are far from over

http://www.techspot.com/news/43249-geohot-joins-anonymous-boycott-of-sony-asks-you-to-come-along.html

 

This. And him being banned from buying a SCEA product doesn't stop him from buying a Sony product, so a boycott of SONY products on his part is legitimate. He's a hacker, hackers don't just stop - they love a challenge. I knew there was more up his sleeve.


I don't see how boycotting a product will help his hacking skills.  But if he really needs a challenge, there's always mountain climbing.

Definitely mountain climbing as a challenge, and intellectual as he is he might even need it. ;)
But jokes aside, like I was referring to the article. It goes beyond the boycott, he's now part of Anonymous. That'll allow him to continue the fight on another front. It's not an anti-sony thing here, it really is an anti-conglomerate thing. If it was against apple I would've thought the same. It's a matter of philosophy more than anything really. I don't like the fact that the guy gets a) crushed by a large corporation, and b) no right to use what he lawfully owns in whatever way that legally pleases him. 

He never lawfully owned the software on the PS3.  Never.  So he got... "crushed."  So you are correct.

Okay smart-alec, define owned in "he never lawfully owned the software on the PS3". On the flip-side, did he own the PS3 hardware? Do you own yours? What elevates software above hardware such that you own one and not the other?

A little challenge for you ;)


The firmware?

So, if the car company who made your car decides program in your cars firmware that it shuts down once the warranty is up... no complaints?

Corporations retaining rights to firmware is an extremely untenable position when you consider the fact that... EVERYTHING has firmware now a days.

From Videogame Consoles, to Cars, to Microwaves.

Only if I agreed to it.  But didn't someone already disprove your car analogy in another thread?  Besides, you don't like it, you don't buy it.  That's freedom.



ssj12 said:
LivingMetal said:
ssj12 said:
LivingMetal said:
padib said:
LivingMetal said:
padib said:
LivingMetal said:
padib said:

things are far from over

http://www.techspot.com/news/43249-geohot-joins-anonymous-boycott-of-sony-asks-you-to-come-along.html

 

This. And him being banned from buying a SCEA product doesn't stop him from buying a Sony product, so a boycott of SONY products on his part is legitimate. He's a hacker, hackers don't just stop - they love a challenge. I knew there was more up his sleeve.


I don't see how boycotting a product will help his hacking skills.  But if he really needs a challenge, there's always mountain climbing.

Definitely mountain climbing as a challenge, and intellectual as he is he might even need it. ;)
But jokes aside, like I was referring to the article. It goes beyond the boycott, he's now part of Anonymous. That'll allow him to continue the fight on another front. It's not an anti-sony thing here, it really is an anti-conglomerate thing. If it was against apple I would've thought the same. It's a matter of philosophy more than anything really. I don't like the fact that the guy gets a) crushed by a large corporation, and b) no right to use what he lawfully owns in whatever way that legally pleases him. 

He never lawfully owned the software on the PS3.  Never.  So he got... "crushed."  So you are correct.

Okay smart-alec, define owned in "he never lawfully owned the software on the PS3". On the flip-side, did he own the PS3 hardware? Do you own yours? What elevates software above hardware such that you own one and not the other?

A little challenge for you ;)


The firmware?


Is owned by Sony until its installed onto your own hardware in which by rights can be removed yourself and install your own software onto.


But do I have the right to modify it that will cause potential financial harm to others.


That's Sony's problem actually. Which is easily solved by banning your console from their network.


It is their problem, and they can do legally do what they can so solve it.  And they did.



Kasz216 said:
ssj12 said:
Kasz216 said:
padib said:

 

 

@kasz - I loved reading that, it reads so well.

So, when it comes to the legal system and how things played out, Sony was actually in a losing position because they had no more options (due to the Judicial Estrappel). Couldn't they just drop the OtherOS case and focus on this one to win and avoid getting caught in two crossing paths? As for Hotz, I don't think he signed the settlement only because he lacked the funds (I'm hoping the guy has a little more fight in him). My thought was that he probably realized Sony had lost face enough (as said before the whole David vs. Goliath analogy) and figured there were plenty other hackers out there to carry on the torche without him spending any money, what's your opinion on that?

For the others, as I said before, the thing is your to own, so fanboys back off. I don't care what system it is, matter of fact I homebrewed my Wii as soon as I learned about it. The guy is not a cheater, and he is not a pirate. A terrible rapper, yes, but for all the rest a big no. Enough with the hating already.

Geez you read the comments in some of the forums online, and it's almost nuts. At least here people are still reasonable.

 

Sony can't drop the Other OS case because they're the defendents in it.  It's a class action suit against sony for removing Other OS.

I mean, they could settle that I guess, but they weren't expected to lose it.  Plus if they then won the hotz litigation, they'd not only lose that defense when it came to Other OS.  They'd lose it for any lawsuit against them period.

Having a sturdy shield is better then a piercing sword if your a large corporation i'd guess.


which unfortunately for Sony, they have a ton of people pissed at them. I know at least 50 people, not including me, that used OtherOS that has requested to be added to the suit. A sturdy shield isn't enough to fend off hundreds or people, let alone thousands. Think about all the medical scientists that probably put their names into this suit. Sony's shield will break under the weight of medical science.

And If im not mistaken, aren't people in Europe also trying to fight for OtherOS to be put back?


Eh.  Even if they lose, it probably will only costs sony millions of dollars.  Rarely is there an injuction that forces stuff back in.


As for Europe, i can't say.  I do know that Norway ruled that Sony broke the law by removing Other OS.

http://forbrukerportalen.no/Artikler/2011/ PlayStation_3_violates_the_Norwegian_Marketing_Control_Act


The fact Norway ruled that Sony broke laws internationally by removing OtherOS actually strengthens their case here greatly. It shows that people actually do/did use it. And that might be enough to push for it to be readded to the firmware, which would be funny as hell seeing that the PS3 Slim models would finally get OtherOS.

And before anyone says "but Sony said OtherOS is impossible on the Slim models" let me stop it now. OtherOS is entirely just a bootloader. It is software. The PS3 Slim is the exact same hardware as the PS3 fat but with smaller parts. There is zero reason as to why it cannot run the the Slim. The Cell processor is still the cell processor, ram is ram, RSX is the RSX, and a hard drive no matter how many gigabytes is still a hard drive. The ability to run the bootloader to run OtherOS can work, will work, and it's just because Sony got their finger up their rears over the RSX's drivers were found out and got scared Nvidia would bitch at them (which based on track record, they would not have).



PC gaming is better than console gaming. Always.     We are Anonymous, We are Legion    Kick-ass interview   Great Flash Series Here    Anime Ratings     Make and Play Please
Amazing discussion about being wrong
Official VGChartz Folding@Home Team #109453
 
Around the Network
LivingMetal said:
Kasz216 said:
LivingMetal said:
padib said:
LivingMetal said:
padib said:
LivingMetal said:
padib said:

things are far from over

http://www.techspot.com/news/43249-geohot-joins-anonymous-boycott-of-sony-asks-you-to-come-along.html

 

This. And him being banned from buying a SCEA product doesn't stop him from buying a Sony product, so a boycott of SONY products on his part is legitimate. He's a hacker, hackers don't just stop - they love a challenge. I knew there was more up his sleeve.


I don't see how boycotting a product will help his hacking skills.  But if he really needs a challenge, there's always mountain climbing.

Definitely mountain climbing as a challenge, and intellectual as he is he might even need it. ;)
But jokes aside, like I was referring to the article. It goes beyond the boycott, he's now part of Anonymous. That'll allow him to continue the fight on another front. It's not an anti-sony thing here, it really is an anti-conglomerate thing. If it was against apple I would've thought the same. It's a matter of philosophy more than anything really. I don't like the fact that the guy gets a) crushed by a large corporation, and b) no right to use what he lawfully owns in whatever way that legally pleases him. 

He never lawfully owned the software on the PS3.  Never.  So he got... "crushed."  So you are correct.

Okay smart-alec, define owned in "he never lawfully owned the software on the PS3". On the flip-side, did he own the PS3 hardware? Do you own yours? What elevates software above hardware such that you own one and not the other?

A little challenge for you ;)


The firmware?

So, if the car company who made your car decides program in your cars firmware that it shuts down once the warranty is up... no complaints?

Corporations retaining rights to firmware is an extremely untenable position when you consider the fact that... EVERYTHING has firmware now a days.

From Videogame Consoles, to Cars, to Microwaves.

Only if I agreed to it.  But didn't someone already disprove your car analogy in another thread?  Besides, you don't like it, you don't buy it.  That's freedom.

No.  They didn't?

Also, uh, nobody agreed to it when they bought the product.

This is why EULA's are problematic.  They're basically illegal when it's ruled you wouldn't have agreed to it before you bought the product.

This is why companys never actually let things play out to trial.

 

If he had signed an agreement BEFORE placing down his money for his PS3, there would be a point... but since that's all done AFTER you buy your PS3, open it up, and it's unusuable....

It's basically up to a judge.



LivingMetal said:
ssj12 said:
padib said:

Okay smart-alec, define owned in "he never lawfully owned the software on the PS3". On the flip-side, did he own the PS3 hardware? Do you own yours? What elevates software above hardware such that you own one and not the other?

A little challenge for you ;)

he is blinded by government propaganda that seems to want people to think companies own your souls and controls everything you do.  I guess civil rights is just something that a corporation allows for now. >.>


I'm libertarian so I believe in small government and less interference.   No one should trample on my rights.  People who work for corporations are also people who have rights as well.  No one shouldn't trample on their right to a livelihood by stealing their work.  Stop being blinded by self-righteousness.  I do not appreciate your disrespectful assumption.

I am a libertarian too. And I am not being at all self-righteous. You are actually being the least libertarian between the two of us. You are defintiely more right leaning than me by a long shot.

Being able to do what you want with what you own is your right. No corporation has any right in stating what you can do with it once you pay for it. Sony's only stance against you doing something against them is banning you from their network, which truly doesn't matter since anyone installing their own software onto the system really does not care about the PSN at all.



PC gaming is better than console gaming. Always.     We are Anonymous, We are Legion    Kick-ass interview   Great Flash Series Here    Anime Ratings     Make and Play Please
Amazing discussion about being wrong
Official VGChartz Folding@Home Team #109453
 
ssj12 said:
Kasz216 said:
padib said:

 

 

@kasz - I loved reading that, it reads so well.

So, when it comes to the legal system and how things played out, Sony was actually in a losing position because they had no more options (due to the Judicial Estrappel). Couldn't they just drop the OtherOS case and focus on this one to win and avoid getting caught in two crossing paths? As for Hotz, I don't think he signed the settlement only because he lacked the funds (I'm hoping the guy has a little more fight in him). My thought was that he probably realized Sony had lost face enough (as said before the whole David vs. Goliath analogy) and figured there were plenty other hackers out there to carry on the torche without him spending any money, what's your opinion on that?

For the others, as I said before, the thing is your to own, so fanboys back off. I don't care what system it is, matter of fact I homebrewed my Wii as soon as I learned about it. The guy is not a cheater, and he is not a pirate. A terrible rapper, yes, but for all the rest a big no. Enough with the hating already.

Geez you read the comments in some of the forums online, and it's almost nuts. At least here people are still reasonable.

 

Sony can't drop the Other OS case because they're the defendents in it.  It's a class action suit against sony for removing Other OS.

I mean, they could settle that I guess, but they weren't expected to lose it.  Plus if they then won the hotz litigation, they'd not only lose that defense when it came to Other OS.  They'd lose it for any lawsuit against them period.

Having a sturdy shield is better then a piercing sword if your a large corporation i'd guess.


which unfortunately for Sony, they have a ton of people pissed at them. I know at least 50 people, not including me, that used OtherOS that has requested to be added to the suit. A sturdy shield isn't enough to fend off hundreds or people, let alone thousands. Think about all the medical scientists that probably put their names into this suit. Sony's shield will break under the weight of medical science.

And If im not mistaken, aren't people in Europe also trying to fight for OtherOS to be put back?

Why would medical scientists add themselves to the case?  I'll answer that.  They wouldn't.  If anyone was using the PS3 in a cluster, why would they upgrade?  Again, I'll answer, they wouldn't.  That's why Sony isn't getting sued by the US gov't for removing OtherOS, even when the Navy is using the PS3 in a cluster. 

The OtherOS case probably won't go anywhere.  You know why?  Sony didn't force you to remove the OtherOS in the first place.  They even put out announcements about what the new FW would do and even had you confirm it twice before it would even install.  In the end, YOU chose playing newer games and the PSN over PS3 Linux.  It was YOUR choice.

Edit:  Above you stated: "Sony's only stance against you doing something against them is banning you from their network, which truly doesn't matter since anyone installing their own software onto the system really does not care about the PSN at all."  If that's the case, why did you choose PSN over PS3 Linux?  I mean you seem so upset over losing it, yet you chose to update your FW.



LivingMetal said:
ssj12 said:
LivingMetal said:
ssj12 said:


Is owned by Sony until its installed onto your own hardware in which by rights can be removed yourself and install your own software onto.


But do I have the right to modify it that will cause potential financial harm to others.


That's Sony's problem actually. Which is easily solved by banning your console from their network.


It is their problem, and they can do legally do what they can so solve it.  And they did.

Truthfully, they didn't solve anything. Hotz took a deal, there was no legal action in the court room because I really don't think Sony would have won if it made it in front of a judge. Hotz wussed out. Plain and simple.

Like I said, cell phones are legally able to be jailbreaked, so the same could be said about a game console. Jailbreak software for phones are regularly available, so why shouldn't PS3 jailbreak software? That's right, there is not reason it shouldnt be regularly available.



PC gaming is better than console gaming. Always.     We are Anonymous, We are Legion    Kick-ass interview   Great Flash Series Here    Anime Ratings     Make and Play Please
Amazing discussion about being wrong
Official VGChartz Folding@Home Team #109453
 
thismeintiel said:
ssj12 said:
Kasz216 said:
padib said:

 

 

@kasz - I loved reading that, it reads so well.

So, when it comes to the legal system and how things played out, Sony was actually in a losing position because they had no more options (due to the Judicial Estrappel). Couldn't they just drop the OtherOS case and focus on this one to win and avoid getting caught in two crossing paths? As for Hotz, I don't think he signed the settlement only because he lacked the funds (I'm hoping the guy has a little more fight in him). My thought was that he probably realized Sony had lost face enough (as said before the whole David vs. Goliath analogy) and figured there were plenty other hackers out there to carry on the torche without him spending any money, what's your opinion on that?

For the others, as I said before, the thing is your to own, so fanboys back off. I don't care what system it is, matter of fact I homebrewed my Wii as soon as I learned about it. The guy is not a cheater, and he is not a pirate. A terrible rapper, yes, but for all the rest a big no. Enough with the hating already.

Geez you read the comments in some of the forums online, and it's almost nuts. At least here people are still reasonable.

 

Sony can't drop the Other OS case because they're the defendents in it.  It's a class action suit against sony for removing Other OS.

I mean, they could settle that I guess, but they weren't expected to lose it.  Plus if they then won the hotz litigation, they'd not only lose that defense when it came to Other OS.  They'd lose it for any lawsuit against them period.

Having a sturdy shield is better then a piercing sword if your a large corporation i'd guess.


which unfortunately for Sony, they have a ton of people pissed at them. I know at least 50 people, not including me, that used OtherOS that has requested to be added to the suit. A sturdy shield isn't enough to fend off hundreds or people, let alone thousands. Think about all the medical scientists that probably put their names into this suit. Sony's shield will break under the weight of medical science.

And If im not mistaken, aren't people in Europe also trying to fight for OtherOS to be put back?

Why would medical scientists add themselves to the case?  I'll answer that.  They wouldn't.  If anyone was using the PS3 in a cluster, why would they upgrade?  Again, I'll answer, they wouldn't.  That's why Sony isn't getting sued by the US gov't for removing OtherOS, even when the Navy is using the PS3 in a cluster. 

The OtherOS case probably won't go anywhere.  You know why?  Sony didn't force you to remove the OtherOS in the first place.  They even put out announcements about what the new FW would do and even had you confirm it twice before it would even install.  In the end, YOU chose playing newer games and the PSN over PS3 Linux.  It was YOUR choice.


Er.  There is a thing called PS3's breaking down.

This is why the US Airforce said Sony removing Other OS was "Very disapointing" and they were aware of the lawsuit.

As for the "your choice"... ever hear of "Hobson's Choice."

Such a choice is actually illegal under consumer laws.

To quote the Other OS Lawsuit....

MR. PIZZIRUSSO: I am, Your Honor. It was a Hobson's choice. Either way, you lose functionality. You are going to lose features either way. And we said that's not a real choice.

 

You can't sell someone an apple and an orange.  Then tell them they have to give one back.  Then claim it's ok because "It was their choice."


Hence why Sony isn't even trying to argue that.  They are trying to argue that the defendents shouldn't of had the expectation to play games that came out after their warranties were up, because after your warranty is up you can't even expect your console will work.