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Forums - General - Why don't we just let people do what they want in life?

richardhutnik on 24 March 2011
Baalzamon said:
richardhutnik said:

Human bodies are entities that do not want to die.  The entire entity is structured so that it wants to live and will do everything in its power to not die.  Whenever someone gets the idea to die, it is because they are stuck in a situation of perceived hopelessness that is a misfunction of what it means to be human.  Want to know why you intervene with people who want to kill themselves?  The reason why is that it isn't the way it is meant to be.  And in a society that doesn't value life that sufficiently that it will, it then will show less regard for life in a lot of other areas.

I understand there is places of hopelessness, and it seems like a mercy killing would be appropriate.  There is also the case of the separate situation where you keep someone in a vegetative state, or trying to save someone who would die shortly of natural causes.  There is also easing pain of someone who is dying.

Anyhow, if you feel that people should have a right to off themselves, I am curious why you think that this is something someone would pick as their option if they had hope.  Maybe the focus should be to give someone hope, rather than ending it all. 

As for the guy with no arms and legs.  He still has a mind, and can think and talk.  Humans can work to give him tools to enable him to function.  In an information age, the mind is a LOT more important than arms and legs.

Once again, the word selfishness appears in my mind when I read this.  Who are we to say the proper way that we are meant to operate?  That is simply the way that many people have perceived human life, not necessarily the way it is supposed to be.

Also, you speak of somebody with no arms and legs still having a mind.  What about, hmmm, somebody who can't even think any more.  They have to be fed, because they do not know when they are hungry.  Other than that, essentially nothing means anything to them because their mind is, simply put, nonexistent.  No offense, but what fucking hope exists for people like this that we are keeping alive!!!  It pisses me off so bad that we think we are the ones that choose that somebody like this should continue living.

I'm sorry if I'm getting mad, I just get completely pissed when people say humans are meant to be this, when that is, as mentioned before, a simple perception from one human of the whole human race.  You have no clue if what we perceive ourselves to be is what was initially meant to occur.  Hell, you don't even know if we were meant to be here for any reason, yet you think you can just say that we are, and that justifies being able to control other people's lives.

According to the reasoning here, individuals with no arms and legs (might as well say functioning) have no hope and no future.  When they get depressed and want to kill themselves, might as well do it.  By this reason, why not off Dr. Stephen Hawkings if he didn't want to live?  Just a reminder, he is a picture of him:

Have you ever had to deal with severe depression?  I have had to deal with it, and I know what it is like to want to deal with these thoughts.  I also know that wanting to off oneself is not the answer.  The problem with the wanting to die argument as a justifcation for supporting suicide is that the decision to want to do this comes from someone who is normally depressed, or scared to not be fully functional.



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Disrarge on 24 March 2011

I don't believe in suicide. It's against my religion.



Baalzamon on 24 March 2011
richardhutnik said:
Baalzamon said:
richardhutnik said:

Human bodies are entities that do not want to die.  The entire entity is structured so that it wants to live and will do everything in its power to not die.  Whenever someone gets the idea to die, it is because they are stuck in a situation of perceived hopelessness that is a misfunction of what it means to be human.  Want to know why you intervene with people who want to kill themselves?  The reason why is that it isn't the way it is meant to be.  And in a society that doesn't value life that sufficiently that it will, it then will show less regard for life in a lot of other areas.

I understand there is places of hopelessness, and it seems like a mercy killing would be appropriate.  There is also the case of the separate situation where you keep someone in a vegetative state, or trying to save someone who would die shortly of natural causes.  There is also easing pain of someone who is dying.

Anyhow, if you feel that people should have a right to off themselves, I am curious why you think that this is something someone would pick as their option if they had hope.  Maybe the focus should be to give someone hope, rather than ending it all. 

As for the guy with no arms and legs.  He still has a mind, and can think and talk.  Humans can work to give him tools to enable him to function.  In an information age, the mind is a LOT more important than arms and legs.

Once again, the word selfishness appears in my mind when I read this.  Who are we to say the proper way that we are meant to operate?  That is simply the way that many people have perceived human life, not necessarily the way it is supposed to be.

Also, you speak of somebody with no arms and legs still having a mind.  What about, hmmm, somebody who can't even think any more.  They have to be fed, because they do not know when they are hungry.  Other than that, essentially nothing means anything to them because their mind is, simply put, nonexistent.  No offense, but what fucking hope exists for people like this that we are keeping alive!!!  It pisses me off so bad that we think we are the ones that choose that somebody like this should continue living.

I'm sorry if I'm getting mad, I just get completely pissed when people say humans are meant to be this, when that is, as mentioned before, a simple perception from one human of the whole human race.  You have no clue if what we perceive ourselves to be is what was initially meant to occur.  Hell, you don't even know if we were meant to be here for any reason, yet you think you can just say that we are, and that justifies being able to control other people's lives.

According to the reasoning here, individuals with no arms and legs (might as well say functioning) have no hope and no future.  When they get depressed and want to kill themselves, might as well do it.  By this reason, why not off Dr. Stephen Hawkings if he didn't want to live?  Just a reminder, he is a picture of him:

Have you ever had to deal with severe depression?  I have had to deal with it, and I know what it is like to want to deal with these thoughts.  I also know that wanting to off oneself is not the answer.  The problem with the wanting to die argument as a justifcation for supporting suicide is that the decision to want to do this comes from someone who is normally depressed, or scared to not be fully functional.

I'm not saying they have no hope or future.  There's always the potential for hope and future (there's also potential for everything to get considerably worse, but you seem to fail to mention this).  I'm saying, if somebody wants to die, who are WE, as innocent bystanders, to tell that person, "Nope, we aren't going to let you die because of our selfish assumptions on the way human life is meant to be.  Instead, we're going to make all decisions for you, and we'll decide what is best for you, when it is just our opinion that we feel it is best."



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

richardhutnik on 24 March 2011

Society has laws against people killing people.  Why is it then suddenly appropriate for someone to kill a human, when that human is themselves?  You won't see me arguing full-blown dogmatically as an absolute against a case of someone ending up killing themselves, but I will argue that it is more important for society to work to motivate and enable people to live, and work to give people hope.  To then, allow suicide to creep in for any reason, and say, "Well that is ok..." rather than come up ways to instill hope, is a cheap copout in a set of values that comes from the inability to meet essential needs on the part of a person.  It is a resignation that YOU SUCK, and then try to justify it by claiming, "People have a right to choose..."  In short, they choose to pick something that works against a core value of humanity, that being to survive and prosper.  Where in suicide is suriving and prospering?

Those who advocate for suicide, should also admit they are pathetically weak in the face of reality and are getting pwned by things they can't handle.



Baalzamon on 24 March 2011
richardhutnik said:

Those who advocate for suicide, should also admit they are pathetically weak in the face of reality and are getting pwned by things they can't handle.

WOAH!!!

I have 3 questions for you:

What is reality?  Who determines what reality is?  Who are we as humans to determine that reality is something that we can spell out (i.e. are humans prone to error in their views on reality)?

Also, please don't tell me I'm pathetically weak in the face of reality, or that I'm getting pwned by things I can't handle (especially #2, since it is in no way whatsoever true).  I can't even imagine what you would have to say about me if you heard other things that I believe, because they are so against what humans are apparently "supposed" to believe.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

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sapphi_snake on 24 March 2011
richardhutnik said:

Society has laws against people killing people.  Why is it then suddenly appropriate for someone to kill a human, when that human is themselves?  You won't see me arguing full-blown dogmatically as an absolute against a case of someone ending up killing themselves, but I will argue that it is more important for society to work to motivate and enable people to live, and work to give people hope.  To then, allow suicide to creep in for any reason, and say, "Well that is ok..." rather than come up ways to instill hope, is a cheap copout in a set of values that comes from the inability to meet essential needs on the part of a person.  It is a resignation that YOU SUCK, and then try to justify it by claiming, "People have a right to choose..."  In short, they choose to pick something that works against a core value of humanity, that being to survive and prosper.  Where in suicide is suriving and prospering?

Those who advocate for suicide, should also admit they are pathetically weak in the face of reality and are getting pwned by things they can't handle.

Because people have a right to do what they want with their own bodies, as long as the ydon't harm others?



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Kasz216 on 24 March 2011

Well, with legalized Suicide, it would be important to get a psychologists approval first to make sure someone just doesn't want to kill themselves because they are suffering a mental illness like depression.  Afterall, there are a lot of people alive today who regret attempting suicide. (Obvious because they aren't dead I guess.)

Outside that though...  sure. 

 

 

Though as for why we don't allow this... because in some peoples minds you killing yourself DOES hurt others.  Bot emotionally and in that the state loses a citizen and worker.

"No man is an Island" and all that.  It's really all a matter of what you consider a reasonable effect on others from which to regulate.

For me and I imagine you it would be the "A man's right to end his fist ends at another man's nose" arguement.

For others it's more murky and based more off benefit to you vs effects to others even if they aren't direct effects.

As such... suicide has no "real" benefit that can be measured.  Sort of like burning money... but with no heat generated.



sapphi_snake on 25 March 2011

@Kasz216 said:

Well, with legalized Suicide, it would be important to get a psychologists approval first

A psychologists approval? Man, you take all the "fun" out of suicide.

Though as for why we don't allow this... because in some peoples minds you killing yourself DOES hurt others.  Bot emotionally and in that the state loses a citizen and worker.

"No man is an Island" and all that.  It's really all a matter of what you consider a reasonable effect on others from which to regulate.

This is against the principle of individuality. If it affects other people, it's only because they allow it. I sure wish people just minded their own business.

As for the state losing a citizen, well with the technolagization that will happen in the future, the fewer people the better, unless you want massive unemployment.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Kasz216 on 25 March 2011
sapphi_snake said:

@Kasz216 said:

Well, with legalized Suicide, it would be important to get a psychologists approval first

A psychologists approval? Man, you take all the "fun" out of suicide.

Though as for why we don't allow this... because in some peoples minds you killing yourself DOES hurt others.  Bot emotionally and in that the state loses a citizen and worker.

"No man is an Island" and all that.  It's really all a matter of what you consider a reasonable effect on others from which to regulate.

This is against the principle of individuality. If it affects other people, it's only because they allow it. I sure wish people just minded their own business.

As for the state losing a citizen, well with the technolagization that will happen in the future, the fewer people the better, unless you want massive unemployment.


I agree.  I'm just stating why things are like they are.  Also, there isn't a country that doesn't go against the principle of individuality in some way.  Except like... Somalia.

Progressive taxation taxes richer people more because they are richer afterall.  Being richer doesn't directly effect someone else, and I don't think there is any country who doesn't do that to some degree.



sapphi_snake on 25 March 2011
Kasz216 said:
sapphi_snake said:

@Kasz216 said:

Well, with legalized Suicide, it would be important to get a psychologists approval first

A psychologists approval? Man, you take all the "fun" out of suicide.

Though as for why we don't allow this... because in some peoples minds you killing yourself DOES hurt others.  Bot emotionally and in that the state loses a citizen and worker.

"No man is an Island" and all that.  It's really all a matter of what you consider a reasonable effect on others from which to regulate.

This is against the principle of individuality. If it affects other people, it's only because they allow it. I sure wish people just minded their own business.

As for the state losing a citizen, well with the technolagization that will happen in the future, the fewer people the better, unless you want massive unemployment.


I agree.  I'm just stating why things are like they are.  Also, there isn't a country that doesn't go against the principle of individuality in some way.  Except like... Somalia.

Progressive taxation taxes richer people more because they are richer afterall.  Being richer doesn't directly effect someone else, and I don't think there is any country who doesn't do that to some degree.

What's the deal with Somalia?



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)