no i completely understand.  islam doesnt kill people, muslims kill people.

Who are you kidding using the Crusades. The whole reason the Crusades happened was because Muslim armies conquered it from Christians in 1076. Muslims were threatening to capture Constantinople. Christians were being massacred and persecuted by the Muslim over lords who had taken over Israel and Jerusalem.

When the Muslims moved towards Constantinople in 1097 over 10,000 Christians mounted in Constantinople to take back the holy land from the oppressive Muslim's. The first Crusade managed to recapture Israel in 1099. The Crusaders butchered everyone within the walls, pretty much. However during that time period the Muslim armies did similiar acts of genocide against the Christians.

During the four crusades horrible acts of genocide and war crimes were commited by the Muslims and the Christian's alike. Muslims killed and persecuted thousands of Christians if not millions, this was the reason the Crusades happened to begin with. If Muslim armies hadn't taken over Jerusalem in the first place none of the crusades would have occured.

It was Islamist oppression that sparked the Crusades. Though I agree the Crusaders did horrible things the Muslims weren't much better.

Also during the second Crusade Muslims were allowed to visit Jerusalem and worship in their mosques. Saladin also took all those who couldn't afford a ransom into slavery when he took Jerusalem.

In the end Christianity matured. Islam did not. The Bible (New Testiment) preaches peace and love with all non-believers where as the Qur'an tells Muslims to kill infidel. Their is a drastic difference between the two faiths. Today Muslim countries force Christian's to convert or be killed and kill any Muslim's who convert to Christianity.

Islam is stuck in the dark ages (In the Middle East), the rest of the world has matured. Islam as a religion is extremely oppressive. I love my Muslim brothers but what the Muslim Governments are doing in the middle east and north africa is unnacceptable.

The Crusades were pretty much about Christians trying to convert Muslims. Actually, the Crusades is also the period where you can trace the first anti-semitic sentiments, and the beginning of the institutionalised persecution of Jews. The Crusadesers also attacked pagans and heretics in Europe.

You also shouldn't forget that the Christians that fought in the Crusades invaded Constantinopole (a city ruled by other Christians), pillaged it, and killed many of it's inhabitants. None of the terriroties that the Christians were trying to take from the Muslims belonged to them (the Christians who fought were mainly Catholics and were from Western Europe, so they really had no way of claiming that they had any right to the  Holy Land which had been part of the Byzantine Empire). Sorry, the Christians were definately the bad guys in the Crusades.

See, here's another problem. Those who shun others due to religion are just going against our teachings. Us Muslims are taught to respect other religions, it's in the Qur'an: (Allah does not forbid you that you show kindness and deal justly with those who did not fight you in your religion and did not drive you out from your homes…)(Al-Mumtahinah 60:8)

Allah:

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike of their heads and strike of every fingertip of them." (Quran 8:12)

Muhammad:

"Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." (ibn ishaq 992)

There are over 100 orders to kill infidels in the quran and thats the main difference, that these so called "islamists" just do what is written in the quran and therefore its right in their religion, while the things christians did long time ago werent done because of religious reasons and secondly, the bible forbids things like killing somebody.

Jesus: "But i tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matthew 5:44)

In contrast to various quotes of the quran, and one more thing NEVER trust a muslim when its about religion or Islam (or defending Islam) they LIE its called TAQQYA, read the quran for yourself like me, and you will see what its all about.

1. I mentioned Crusades as one small part of an overall topic.

2. While the first Crusade was a military defensive initiation, the others were not.

3. The Holy Land had already, peacefully, been under Muslim control for over 300 years by the time of the firts Crusade  and during all that time, and all the time after, Muslims freely allowed Jews and Christians to worship at their respective sites. However, during the Christian ruled times the Jews and Muslims were allowed no such freedoms and in fact the Dome of the Rock and entire Temple area were used as a trash heap and horse stable.

4. The Christian bible in has numerous war related verses about defeating your enemies. While primarily existing in the OT, it also exists in other parts. Principally, you have to realize the time frame it was written, Christians were a small minority under duress from Jews and Roman power and/or it was stories about Jesus, a single Jew whose purpose was to redirect Jews. Not start a revolution and new religion.

5. EVERY verse in the Qur'an about fighting others is:
 A) not referring to jews/christians as they are considered beleivers and/or people of the book, not infidels.
 B) always prefaced by talk about existing wars (at the time of the writing) and conflicts with other polytheist Arabs
 C) always followed by talk about reconcilation, push to get peace, accepting peace, treaties, etc and that the aggressor in a war is not liked by God.

6. Yes Christianity has changed and matured into a religion far closer to its actual teaching, while Islam is definately not there. But, that is the point of my thread. To demonstrate that this is not new to any religion and its not the basis of Islam. People of all faiths, espeially nonMuslims, need to quit reiterating and trying to prove that Islam is evil and violent, but instead need to focus on the real message Islam was and is defined as in the Qur'an.

In other words, by trying to continuously prove and show Islam as violent and evil, you are only supporting the cause of the extremists. But, by focusing on what the Qur'an actually says in total and the history of Islamic culture before the 1800's, you can then start a process where modern Muslim societies will realize that they are not following Islam.

Finally, Islam is not stuck in the Dark Ages, because that implies Islam acted like this during those centuries, when in fact it did not. The Dark Ages left Christianity and centuries later developed in the Islamic world. However, just as Muslim controlled Spain helped ignited the philosophies and ideologies that pushed the beginnings of the Renassance, Christian controlled western world should help ignite the modern philosphies of democracy, peace, freedoms that had already existed in Islamic cultures for centuries before.

At OP,

Must award you bravery points at least for starting this thread. Islam from a historical point of view is no better or worse than Christianity give or take though if we look at numbers than killings in the name of Christ far exceed those committed under the banner of Islam. The way I see it, Empires will use whatever ideology at their disposal to advance (or not) their civilisation and territory whether it be a religion or a political ideology like facism or nationalism. One of the main issues I have with a lot of people (Muslims and non Muslims alike) are they are so quick to see the crimes of others (and rightly so I may add) but completely turn a blind eye to the crimes committed in their name by their Government or in the name of their religion as if it's not a crime at all but for the greater good in some abstract universe.

Ah man, not you again. For those who don't know I had quite a lengthy discussion with ProdigyBam about this specific topic. Each and every case of supposed violence he brings up out of the Qur'an is always absent of the verses that surround it that discuss the actual context of the quote. (btw, its very easy to search and find multiple translations of the Qur'an in English that are very easy to search on and navigate)

Also, keep in mind that the Qur'an has extensive rules of war because it was recording during a time of war when Muslims went from a smaller band that constantly fought off attacks to a larger dominate group that unified all Arabs. Thus, EVERY part discussing enemies, war, fighting, etc are always referring to these then current wars against other Arabs who were idol worshipers and polytheists from Mecca and other surrounding areas. Not a general set of commands towards all nonMuslims.

As an example, his use of Qur'an 8:12.... let's pull out the entire segment of verses that bring it into context. This one is really interesting in that its full discussion actually shows where God is reprimanding those who wanted to attack enemies who were not armed, but God said no.

Surah 8 titled "Spoiles of War" - This is a direct discussion where God is talking to Muhammad about recent arguments among various Muslims with Muhammad. It historically was recorded after a battle between Muslims now in Medinah and those from the Meccan forces.

(Taken from a translation by Yusuf Ali)

1: They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say: "(such) spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger: So fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves: Obey Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe."

2: For, Believers are those who, when Allah is mentioned, feel a tremor in their hearts, and when they hear His signs rehearsed, find their faith strengthened, and put (all) their trust in their Lord;

3: Who establish regular prayers and spend (freely) out of the gifts We have given them for sustenance:

4: Such in truth are the believers: they have grades of dignity with their Lord, and forgiveness, and generous sustenance:

5: Just as thy Lord ordered thee out of thy house in truth, even though a party among the Believers disliked it,

6: Disputing with thee concerning the truth after it was made manifest, as if they were being driven to death and they (actually) saw it.

7: Behold! Allah promised you one of the two (enemy) parties, that it should be yours: Ye wished that the one unarmed should be yours, but Allah willed to justify the Truth according to His words and to cut off the roots of the Unbelievers;-

8: That He might justify Truth and prove Falsehood false, distasteful though it be to those in guilt.

9: Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: "I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks."

10: Allah made it but a message of hope, and an assurance to your hearts: (in any case) there is no help except from Allah: and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

11: Remember He covered you with a sort of drowsiness, to give you calm as from Himself, and he caused rain to descend on you from heaven, to clean you therewith, to remove from you the stain of Satan, to strengthen your hearts, and to plant your feet firmly therewith.

12: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

13: This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.

14: Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire."

15: O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them.

16: If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!

17: It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threw (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who hear and know (all things).

18: That, and also because Allah is He Who makes feeble the plans and stratagem of the Unbelievers.

19: (O Unbelievers!) if ye prayed for victory and judgment, now hath the judgment come to you: if ye desist (from wrong), it will be best for you: if ye return (to the attack), so shall We. Not the least good will your forces be to you even if they were multiplied: for verily Allah is with those who believe!

.... and it continues with various messages about strength in God and God will always protect you, etc.

As you can clearly tell, this is not a command to go out and kill nonMuslims in any way, shape, or form. This is simply a clarification what to do with the spoils of a war recently won, definition of believer, discussions about God's decisions and that you should always trust in God based on events that already happened. In fact, the verse mentioned was a commandment given by God to the Angels who fought alongside them in the battle.

This is no different than the many historical recounts of battles won in the OT of the Bible.

Prodigy's words are absolutely no different than Muslim extremist groups. They take uneducated people who more than probably never read the Qur'an and within their own rhetoric add these out of context quotes to support their evil views. Same as his definition of Taqqya, just extremist bullshit.

Another thing to keep in mind is how the Dark Ages of Christianity are the same as now with Islam. The bible was in languages the people being lied to couldn't read. The Qur'an is kept in an old dialect of Arabic that is not used by any Arabic country. Furthermore, the greater majority of Muslims don't even speak any dialect of Arabic, as the majority are not Arabs. Like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, etc. So, its easy to lie to these people who in the rural poor areas are generally illiterate in their native tongue anyways.