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Ail said:
naznatips said:

I don't think I've ever seen a journalist post something so horrible in my life. I don't even know where to start.

Frist, let me get the disclaimer out of the way: I have, many years ago, pirated games before. I was a stupid kid, and didn't care. I don't do that anymore, but I was not the devil incarnate like Sterling and twesterm believe. I certainly wasn't trying to harm the industry in any way. I was just young and silly and broke, and couldn't afford many games any way. In my adulthood I legally bought all of the handful of games I pirated as a child, generally on Steam. I'm not defending piracy as a practice at all. It's a bad thing, you shouldn't do it. I'm saying pirates aren't little demon's trying to destroy the industry. Maybe Jim Sterling is, though. 

I'm going to havve to break this into parts, because this rant might be explosively long and I don't want to miss any of the stupid opinions in this article, much less the factually incorrect bits. 

First of all, in his opening paragraph he points out that both Crysis and Killzone 3 were leaked onto the internet recently. Does he ever bring up Killzone 3 again? Nope. Or the presence of piracy on consoles and handhelds? Nope. Well let's look at that. Sony claims the PSP's abysmal sales are almost entirely due to piracy. Do I believe this? No, but I do know certain games have been pirated more than even the biggest of PC games. For example, Dissidia was pirated more than 5 million times... in Japan alone. Even Starcraft 2 wasn't pirated that much. Did that stop Dissidia from being profitable? Absolutely not. Similarly, the R4 on the DS is the simplest piracy tool ever made. No system hacks, no firmware hacks or rewrites, people can literally drop a rom onto a microSD and pop it the device straight into their DS, and with it games have been pirated hundreds of millions of times over the gerenation. And now we have Killzone 3 leaked and PS3's being cracked everywhere for the purpose of piracy. Why are PC gamers being singled out in this ridiculous attack again?

Now he goes on to examine how "cutthroat" the game industry is, and how if you aren't selling multi-millions, you don't make money. Wait, what? We're blaming PC, by far the cheapest HD development option, for the high barriers of entry now? Do you people have any idea what's been going on this generation? EA has lost billions of dollars, fired 1,500 people (more than the entire staff of Eidos). Speaking of Eidos, they would have been completely bankrupt if it weren't for SE buying them out. 2K has only ever made money two years (GTAIV and RDR) the entire generation and even then it wasn't much. Activision even lost money last year, and they're practically printing money with Call of Duty. The last two years EA has lost more than $1 billion. Ubisoft is barely scraping by breaking even, and only because of Assassin's Creed and their casual games like Just Dance. 

Those are by far console focused Western developers. The Japanese tend to do better, because they aren't functionally retarded. Okay, a little harsh, but seriously, what the hell is wrong with this side of the world that we can't budget our games for reasonable sales expectations? It's become exactly like the movie industry. The only people who can afford to make games are those who can afford to lose millions of dollars on them! With this, dozens of publishers have closed, thousands of developers are out of work, and the industry has shrunk signifficantly in the number of people making games. All of this is completely due to console development. So how about this devlish PC, with these stupid PC gamers that these ever so brilliant dying publishers are ignoring?

Valve just announced that they make more money per employee than Google or Apple. Judgingn by Forbes estimates of their profits, it's a lot more. Forbes estimates Steam made $1-$2 BILLION for Valve last year. That's just Valve's profits on the service alone. They take a 30% cut on every game sold, and people pay them for advertising on the front page. Just those factors, and the games they themselves have sold, have caused them to make $1-$2 billion, while EA lost $750 million. EA, the publisher who is actively avoiding Steam. Who refused to put Dragon Age II on it in time for the Signature Edition sale. The Sims bombed on consoles, but sold 4.6 million copies on PC. It was one of EA's only profitable pieces of software in 2009, a year in which they only lost $350 million. How about Blizzard? They sold over 4.5 million copies of Starcraft 2. World of Warcraft is the most profitable piece of entertainment in the history of mankind. 

But that's just big guys. Let's talk about the kind of environment, and potential profits available for the little ones. Jim Sterling, in his infinite wisdom, decided to use World of Goo as an example of the doom of PC. World of Goo made more than 50% of its money, by 2009, on the 2D Boy Website, and Steam (thanks to a Steam sale). About 30% of their total money was WiiWare, which is a pretty solid cut. Then they did the Humble Indie Bundle, which alone made $1.3 million. about 1/4 of which went to 2D Boy. In the end they made the vast majority of their profits on PC, and PC is where it's still selling. 2D Boy themselves are staunch defenders of PC, and Steam, and very vocal against the effectiveness of DRM and the silliness of blaming piracy for the inability to make profit. Or how about Outerlight, a small indie developer who made a clever game, only to have their company destroyed by Ubisoft and their ideas stolen for AC:B source. Outerlight wished they had just ignored publishers, and worked with Steam alone, which brings me to my real point:

You want to know what's destroying this industry? It's publishers. It's EA, Activision, 2K, and Ubisoft. It is the companies who strived so hard to set up gaming into an oligarchy, where only the rich and powerful survive and the indie developer has no chance. You want to know why they hate PC? Because it's where the indie games thrive. It's where Magicka can sell 30,000 copies in one day on Steam and makes a profit, and sells 200,000 copies in 2 weeks and already funds the little guys' next 3 games. It's where Super Meat Boy can double its sales on all consoles combined. It's where Minecraft, made by one man, can make more money than Mass Effect 2 and its tens of millions of dollars in budget. It's where those huge publishers, those massive companies who want gaming to be like the movie industry, have no control. It is the great equalizer. The place where they have to compete with the little guys. Where they have to sell on a platform (Steam) which is supportive of those little guys. It's the place where they can't turn the gaming industry into the movie industry, ruled by the strong and impossible for the weak to enter.   

You want to blame piracy for the lack of publisher support on PC? Ridiculous. Blame fear. Fear that the horrible business models that those giant publishers created under the assumption that they could shut out the little guys forever, are now causing their impending doom. PC is an open platform. It's a platform that supports creativity, and quality, and small budget games better than anywhere else in the industry. Where people can make money without getting a publisher at all. So don't give me this crap. Don't tell me PC is inconsequential. Steam is the largest digitial distribution software service in the world. PC is stronger than ever, and far more profitable than consoles now. Piracy is bad. But this article is a crime in itself. 


No it's not and before you go about stating this, how about you give us some numbers instead of making things up ?

Because all your numbers are far off...

Google makes 500k /employee...

At 250 employee for Valves all we can deduce is that Valve made more than 125 million profit last year.

it surelly didn't make the billions you are claiming or the company would not be valued around 2-4 billion$. That is straight financial fact, no company is valued at twice it's profit....

Steam is  at best the third behind the AppStore and XBoxLive...( Steam revenue was shy of 1 billion in 2010, XboxLive was slightly over 1 billion$..)

You article is not journalism, just you making up facts as you write them. Nowhere in the Forbes interview does it say Steam made 2-4 billions. What the article says is that Forbes estimates the value of the company to be in the 2-4 billions range, that is totally different......


Since when does revenue = market share?  If it was Opera would have the largest internet browser market share since it was sold to Nintendo Wii users.

Market share is the amount of product/downloads moved that. Which I'm pretty sure, if you want to include the AppStore which isn't even in the same market as PC or console DD game services, Steam is #2 in the market. Easily #1 since the AppStore isn't a game service.



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9Chiba said:
Ail said:
9Chiba said:
Ail said:
9Chiba said:
Ail said:
naznatips said:
Ail said:

Lets keep going and deconstructing your posts because it is kind of funny.

Activision didn't loose money last year, they made 418 million$, they are projecting 650 million$ of profit for next year, that is fact straight from their financials, not imaginary numbers invented to make a point...

 

EA made a profit in 2010 and will make one in 2011 too, current consensus is 0.67$/share, with 305 millions shares outstanding that's a little under 200 million$.


http://www.joystiq.com/2010/05/11/ea-posts-677-million-loss-in-fy2010-alongside-downed-revenues/

Lying is not a good idea. All my figures are straight from reputable sources. I will call you on this.

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/66326

EA's total losses over the last 3 quarter are about $300 million. In 2010 it was about $700 million. They have lost $1 billion in the last 2 years.


Thanks for demonstrating your bad understanding of financial numbers and Non GAAP.

You quote Joystick and Shacknews for financials.

I quote fidelity...

Guess which ones knows a little better about the financial world...

http://eresearch.fidelity.com/eresearch/evaluate/fundamentals/earnings.jhtml?stockspage=earnings&symbols=ERTS

http://eresearch.fidelity.com/eresearch/evaluate/fundamentals/earnings.jhtml?symbols=ATVI

 

Hint : Those GAAP numbers you guys have been quoting around and that gets reprinted in gaming sites don't mean shit, Non GAAP is all that matters...........


No.

Non GAAP is the reason for the Great Depression.

And here are the income statements for ERTS for the last three years.

http://eresearch.fidelity.com/eresearch/evaluate/fundamentals/financials.jhtml?stockspage=incomestatement&symbols=ERTS

They're from the same site you posted, and it took about 3 seconds to find.

What you posted are quarterly earnings reports. That has nothing to do with how the company is doing, only how much investors expect to receive as dividends per share. A company can be bleeding but still increase in stock price.

Those numbers have nothing to do with dividends for the simple reason that Electronics Arts doesn't pay dividends and hasn't in the last 5 years at least....

Earnings per share is simply the Non GAAP profit for the quarter divided by the number of shares.......( the earnings per share on the page I linked that is)

 

For most industries GAAP and non GAAP numbers are usually similar and the difference tends to be one time event which is why most people prefer GAAP numbers.

However this is not true for the software industry and especially the video game industry.

The reason is that a few years ago Electronics Arts and Activision both started heavilly to defer revenue from their products to later quarter and as a result for those companies Non GAAP is a better view of how the company are really doing. ( if you look at ATVI latest financial report you will notice they defered over 1 billion$ of revenue ( they got the cash but for accounting purposes they decided to act as if it had not come in yet. ))

Yea, forgot, nothing to do with dividends, edited my post ^^.

And while companies may prefer non GAAP (they always have), investors still prefer GAAP, simply because GAAP tends to be much more conservative in terms of earnings and income.

The problem is that it is only true if the only difference is one time events, the whole defered revenue shit has really made Non GAAP a better view of how ATVI and ERTS works.

 

Thank god soon that will not be a problem anymore as I explained, the defered revenue from the previous year is catch up with the one from the current year and ATVI is actually projecting to have very similar GAAP and nonGAAP revenues for 2012 ( calendar 2011).( quarters will still be widely different but over a year the numbers will be similar)

Honestly, I've never really looked into software companies' business models so I can't say anything. Could you show me an example of deferred revenue (I assume it's the same as unearned income/accounts payable)

http://investor.activision.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=548900

 

Look at Account payable and defered revenue line....

Then compare with Q3 :

http://investor.activision.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=527295

Defered revenue increased by about 1 billion$ between both quarters...( and account payable by 100 million$ or so).

 

PS : My understanding is that with the advent of online gaming, companies can claim they will incur costs beyond the cost of sales and as a result they can defer some revenue. Where it gets tricky is that most of them choose to defer a lot more revenue than what those costs are going to be. If I had to guess I would say in the end they do this to be able to provide 4 similar quarters in the year instead of one really big quarter and then 3 sucky ones........

The other practical effect is that despite the fact that Q4 2010 was the best ever quarter for ATVI, the overall 2010 year was average and despite the fact that their projections for 2011 are not that good, their profit in 2011 will increase by 50% ( projected  650 million$ profit vs a little over 400 this year), all because the good sales of Q4 2010 will be actually included in the 2011 GAAP revenue..

PS2 : One nice effect it has for ATVI is that due to this massive revenue deferal it isn't not hard for them to predict what GAAP numbers will be the following year as 1/3rd of the money is already done before the year starts, another reason why analysts prefer to view the Non GAAP results for those companies as those reflect the reality of the quarters, not what was done the previous quarters...



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

ssj12 said:
Ail said:
naznatips said:

I don't think I've ever seen a journalist post something so horrible in my life. I don't even know where to start.

Frist, let me get the disclaimer out of the way: I have, many years ago, pirated games before. I was a stupid kid, and didn't care. I don't do that anymore, but I was not the devil incarnate like Sterling and twesterm believe. I certainly wasn't trying to harm the industry in any way. I was just young and silly and broke, and couldn't afford many games any way. In my adulthood I legally bought all of the handful of games I pirated as a child, generally on Steam. I'm not defending piracy as a practice at all. It's a bad thing, you shouldn't do it. I'm saying pirates aren't little demon's trying to destroy the industry. Maybe Jim Sterling is, though. 

I'm going to havve to break this into parts, because this rant might be explosively long and I don't want to miss any of the stupid opinions in this article, much less the factually incorrect bits. 

First of all, in his opening paragraph he points out that both Crysis and Killzone 3 were leaked onto the internet recently. Does he ever bring up Killzone 3 again? Nope. Or the presence of piracy on consoles and handhelds? Nope. Well let's look at that. Sony claims the PSP's abysmal sales are almost entirely due to piracy. Do I believe this? No, but I do know certain games have been pirated more than even the biggest of PC games. For example, Dissidia was pirated more than 5 million times... in Japan alone. Even Starcraft 2 wasn't pirated that much. Did that stop Dissidia from being profitable? Absolutely not. Similarly, the R4 on the DS is the simplest piracy tool ever made. No system hacks, no firmware hacks or rewrites, people can literally drop a rom onto a microSD and pop it the device straight into their DS, and with it games have been pirated hundreds of millions of times over the gerenation. And now we have Killzone 3 leaked and PS3's being cracked everywhere for the purpose of piracy. Why are PC gamers being singled out in this ridiculous attack again?

Now he goes on to examine how "cutthroat" the game industry is, and how if you aren't selling multi-millions, you don't make money. Wait, what? We're blaming PC, by far the cheapest HD development option, for the high barriers of entry now? Do you people have any idea what's been going on this generation? EA has lost billions of dollars, fired 1,500 people (more than the entire staff of Eidos). Speaking of Eidos, they would have been completely bankrupt if it weren't for SE buying them out. 2K has only ever made money two years (GTAIV and RDR) the entire generation and even then it wasn't much. Activision even lost money last year, and they're practically printing money with Call of Duty. The last two years EA has lost more than $1 billion. Ubisoft is barely scraping by breaking even, and only because of Assassin's Creed and their casual games like Just Dance. 

Those are by far console focused Western developers. The Japanese tend to do better, because they aren't functionally retarded. Okay, a little harsh, but seriously, what the hell is wrong with this side of the world that we can't budget our games for reasonable sales expectations? It's become exactly like the movie industry. The only people who can afford to make games are those who can afford to lose millions of dollars on them! With this, dozens of publishers have closed, thousands of developers are out of work, and the industry has shrunk signifficantly in the number of people making games. All of this is completely due to console development. So how about this devlish PC, with these stupid PC gamers that these ever so brilliant dying publishers are ignoring?

Valve just announced that they make more money per employee than Google or Apple. Judgingn by Forbes estimates of their profits, it's a lot more. Forbes estimates Steam made $1-$2 BILLION for Valve last year. That's just Valve's profits on the service alone. They take a 30% cut on every game sold, and people pay them for advertising on the front page. Just those factors, and the games they themselves have sold, have caused them to make $1-$2 billion, while EA lost $750 million. EA, the publisher who is actively avoiding Steam. Who refused to put Dragon Age II on it in time for the Signature Edition sale. The Sims bombed on consoles, but sold 4.6 million copies on PC. It was one of EA's only profitable pieces of software in 2009, a year in which they only lost $350 million. How about Blizzard? They sold over 4.5 million copies of Starcraft 2. World of Warcraft is the most profitable piece of entertainment in the history of mankind. 

But that's just big guys. Let's talk about the kind of environment, and potential profits available for the little ones. Jim Sterling, in his infinite wisdom, decided to use World of Goo as an example of the doom of PC. World of Goo made more than 50% of its money, by 2009, on the 2D Boy Website, and Steam (thanks to a Steam sale). About 30% of their total money was WiiWare, which is a pretty solid cut. Then they did the Humble Indie Bundle, which alone made $1.3 million. about 1/4 of which went to 2D Boy. In the end they made the vast majority of their profits on PC, and PC is where it's still selling. 2D Boy themselves are staunch defenders of PC, and Steam, and very vocal against the effectiveness of DRM and the silliness of blaming piracy for the inability to make profit. Or how about Outerlight, a small indie developer who made a clever game, only to have their company destroyed by Ubisoft and their ideas stolen for AC:B source. Outerlight wished they had just ignored publishers, and worked with Steam alone, which brings me to my real point:

You want to know what's destroying this industry? It's publishers. It's EA, Activision, 2K, and Ubisoft. It is the companies who strived so hard to set up gaming into an oligarchy, where only the rich and powerful survive and the indie developer has no chance. You want to know why they hate PC? Because it's where the indie games thrive. It's where Magicka can sell 30,000 copies in one day on Steam and makes a profit, and sells 200,000 copies in 2 weeks and already funds the little guys' next 3 games. It's where Super Meat Boy can double its sales on all consoles combined. It's where Minecraft, made by one man, can make more money than Mass Effect 2 and its tens of millions of dollars in budget. It's where those huge publishers, those massive companies who want gaming to be like the movie industry, have no control. It is the great equalizer. The place where they have to compete with the little guys. Where they have to sell on a platform (Steam) which is supportive of those little guys. It's the place where they can't turn the gaming industry into the movie industry, ruled by the strong and impossible for the weak to enter.   

You want to blame piracy for the lack of publisher support on PC? Ridiculous. Blame fear. Fear that the horrible business models that those giant publishers created under the assumption that they could shut out the little guys forever, are now causing their impending doom. PC is an open platform. It's a platform that supports creativity, and quality, and small budget games better than anywhere else in the industry. Where people can make money without getting a publisher at all. So don't give me this crap. Don't tell me PC is inconsequential. Steam is the largest digitial distribution software service in the world. PC is stronger than ever, and far more profitable than consoles now. Piracy is bad. But this article is a crime in itself. 


No it's not and before you go about stating this, how about you give us some numbers instead of making things up ?

Because all your numbers are far off...

Google makes 500k /employee...

At 250 employee for Valves all we can deduce is that Valve made more than 125 million profit last year.

it surelly didn't make the billions you are claiming or the company would not be valued around 2-4 billion$. That is straight financial fact, no company is valued at twice it's profit....

Steam is  at best the third behind the AppStore and XBoxLive...( Steam revenue was shy of 1 billion in 2010, XboxLive was slightly over 1 billion$..)

You article is not journalism, just you making up facts as you write them. Nowhere in the Forbes interview does it say Steam made 2-4 billions. What the article says is that Forbes estimates the value of the company to be in the 2-4 billions range, that is totally different......


Since when does revenue = market share?  If it was Opera would have the largest internet browser market share since it was sold to Nintendo Wii users.

Market share is the amount of product/downloads moved that. Which I'm pretty sure, if you want to include the AppStore which isn't even in the same market as PC or console DD game services, Steam is #2 in the market. Easily #1 since the AppStore isn't a game service.


Naz said :

"Steam is the largest digitial distribution software service in the world."

He didn't say gaming, PC or anything..

I'm not sure what your Opera comments means as Opera isn't getting big bucks out of being on the Wii..

As for revenue as a mean to identify who has the bigger marketshare that is the usual measure used in those cases.

But if you only want to use the number of downloads then Steam becomes a distant third behind the AppStore and the Android market place ( we're talking millions of downloads vs hundred of millions, it's not even in the same ballpark at all.. Steam is Tiny as a digital distribution service compared to those other two...).

And if you use revenue, I maintain that Steam is third behind the AppStore and XboXlive ( I have no clue where the Android marketplace stands so I am not including it).

And even if you want to restrain it to gaming, there are more games being downloaded from the AppStore or the Android Store than from Steam, once again.....




PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

Kasz216 said:
slowmo said:
Kasz216 said:
twesterm said:
Killy_Vorkosigan said:

Oh also, too funny that you twesterm, bash piracy while pirating the article of Dtoid, pictures included ^^


Yeah, that's why I make sure to fully source the article so it's not really pirating but nice try though.  Way to deflect!

Yeah, a much better way would of been to point out your avatar.  Which is piracy actually.


No it's not, it's copyright infringement!

Which makes it as much piracy as what he's posting about and reffering to as piracy?

They're both just copyright infringement, if one is piracy, they both are.


I was being ironic if you read the thread, sorry you missed it!



Ail said:
9Chiba said:
Ail said:
9Chiba said:
Ail said:
9Chiba said:
Ail said:
naznatips said:
Ail said:

Lets keep going and deconstructing your posts because it is kind of funny.

Activision didn't loose money last year, they made 418 million$, they are projecting 650 million$ of profit for next year, that is fact straight from their financials, not imaginary numbers invented to make a point...

 

EA made a profit in 2010 and will make one in 2011 too, current consensus is 0.67$/share, with 305 millions shares outstanding that's a little under 200 million$.


http://www.joystiq.com/2010/05/11/ea-posts-677-million-loss-in-fy2010-alongside-downed-revenues/

Lying is not a good idea. All my figures are straight from reputable sources. I will call you on this.

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/66326

EA's total losses over the last 3 quarter are about $300 million. In 2010 it was about $700 million. They have lost $1 billion in the last 2 years.


Thanks for demonstrating your bad understanding of financial numbers and Non GAAP.

You quote Joystick and Shacknews for financials.

I quote fidelity...

Guess which ones knows a little better about the financial world...

http://eresearch.fidelity.com/eresearch/evaluate/fundamentals/earnings.jhtml?stockspage=earnings&symbols=ERTS

http://eresearch.fidelity.com/eresearch/evaluate/fundamentals/earnings.jhtml?symbols=ATVI

 

Hint : Those GAAP numbers you guys have been quoting around and that gets reprinted in gaming sites don't mean shit, Non GAAP is all that matters...........


No.

Non GAAP is the reason for the Great Depression.

And here are the income statements for ERTS for the last three years.

http://eresearch.fidelity.com/eresearch/evaluate/fundamentals/financials.jhtml?stockspage=incomestatement&symbols=ERTS

They're from the same site you posted, and it took about 3 seconds to find.

What you posted are quarterly earnings reports. That has nothing to do with how the company is doing, only how much investors expect to receive as dividends per share. A company can be bleeding but still increase in stock price.

Those numbers have nothing to do with dividends for the simple reason that Electronics Arts doesn't pay dividends and hasn't in the last 5 years at least....

Earnings per share is simply the Non GAAP profit for the quarter divided by the number of shares.......( the earnings per share on the page I linked that is)

 

For most industries GAAP and non GAAP numbers are usually similar and the difference tends to be one time event which is why most people prefer GAAP numbers.

However this is not true for the software industry and especially the video game industry.

The reason is that a few years ago Electronics Arts and Activision both started heavilly to defer revenue from their products to later quarter and as a result for those companies Non GAAP is a better view of how the company are really doing. ( if you look at ATVI latest financial report you will notice they defered over 1 billion$ of revenue ( they got the cash but for accounting purposes they decided to act as if it had not come in yet. ))

Yea, forgot, nothing to do with dividends, edited my post ^^.

And while companies may prefer non GAAP (they always have), investors still prefer GAAP, simply because GAAP tends to be much more conservative in terms of earnings and income.

The problem is that it is only true if the only difference is one time events, the whole defered revenue shit has really made Non GAAP a better view of how ATVI and ERTS works.

 

Thank god soon that will not be a problem anymore as I explained, the defered revenue from the previous year is catch up with the one from the current year and ATVI is actually projecting to have very similar GAAP and nonGAAP revenues for 2012 ( calendar 2011).( quarters will still be widely different but over a year the numbers will be similar)

Honestly, I've never really looked into software companies' business models so I can't say anything. Could you show me an example of deferred revenue (I assume it's the same as unearned income/accounts payable)

http://investor.activision.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=548900

 

Look at Account payable and defered revenue line....

Then compare with Q3 :

http://investor.activision.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=527295

Defered revenue increased by about 1 billion$ between both quarters...( and account payable by 100 million$ or so).

 

PS : My understanding is that with the advent of online gaming, companies can claim they will incur costs beyond the cost of sales and as a result they can defer some revenue. Where it gets tricky is that most of them choose to defer a lot more revenue than what those costs are going to be. If I had to guess I would say in the end they do this to be able to provide 4 similar quarters in the year instead of one really big quarter and then 3 sucky ones........

The other practical effect is that despite the fact that Q4 2010 was the best ever quarter for ATVI, the overall 2010 year was average and despite the fact that their projections for 2011 are not that good, their profit in 2011 will increase by 50% ( projected  650 million$ profit vs a little over 400 this year), all because the good sales of Q4 2010 will be actually included in the 2011 GAAP revenue..

PS2 : One nice effect it has for ATVI is that due to this massive revenue deferal it isn't not hard for them to predict what GAAP numbers will be the following year as 1/3rd of the money is already done before the year starts, another reason why analysts prefer to view the Non GAAP results for those companies as those reflect the reality of the quarters, not what was done the previous quarters...


By the way there is a table at the end of Q4 report that explains why the NonGAAP and GAAP results are so different and as you can see, the huge reason is this deferal of revenue...

 

Three Months Ended December 31, 2010


Operating Income (Loss)

Net Income (Loss)

Basic Earnings (Loss) per Share

Diluted Earnings (Loss) per Share













 

GAAP Measurement


$

(397)

$

(233)

$

(0.20)

$

(0.20)













 

Less:  Net effect from deferral in net revenues and related cost of sales

(a)


859


628


0.52


0.51













 

Less:  Stock-based compensation

(b)


37


24


0.02


0.02













 

Less:  Restructuring (included in general and administrative)


(1)


-


-


-













 

Less:  Amortization of intangible assets and purchase price accounting related adjustments

(d)


77


38


0.03


0.03













 

Less:  Impairment of intangible assets

(e)


326


198


0.16


0.16













 

Non-GAAP Measurement


$

901

$

655

$

0.54

$

0.53













 























 


PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

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Killy_Vorkosigan said:

 

 

Hey, if I want to look at the shite from Dtoid, I can go on VGC now.

 

Don't forget that KZ3 has just leaked as well on torrent, or that you could get the Black Ops and MW2 360 version on torrents before the PC version. 

Also, it's quite funny to see console based sites talk shit on the PC crowd by making more publicity of the availability of games on torrent games, while minimizing the leaks on consoles. After that, we'll see a lot of die hards 12yo fanboys who will say PR industry shite like 'oh noes, the poor developarz' while spreading this kind of info. That's a great advertising for piracy you pretend to loathe, morons !

 

If you want to pay 100€ or more on games in the future, go for it, and support the industry whose only goal is to make money. And whine while you can, we will see in ten years when you'll have a proper job and kids and no time to play games.

 

EDIT : Oh btw, please tell the truth , it's in fact a leak coming FROM Crytek. So don't bash everybody as an argument to ur holy crusade against piracy


What a way to explain Away that you are cheap and most likely don't have any respect for anyone. I bet you borrow money and never pay it back either. It's called having some Pride and paying for what you like.  It doesn't matter who steals more or not. It is the point of not doing it.  You will push the games to 100 dollars a game, you will. Not the person who pays out of pocket for what he loves.

Look how many studio's we lost because of people like you. You think your doing gods work. You are a thief and criminal and that is it.

I can download house tracks for my shows for free but I don't because I would rather see the DJ get the money.
Don't justify your reasons with bullsh-t. Then  you go on to  talk about the industry only wanting to make money well most of are not. have you looked at the earnings for software companies. It's so hard for them to turn a profit that they don't go out of there way to try new things anymore. Put out games that are shorter and why is this.

You f-cking pirates are making it harder to turn a dollar. So people that pay  hard earned cash get screwed because you pirates are cheap.

You come out saying sh-t like this and you expect anyone to agree with you, you pirates are pathetic.



This is why I buy my games new, Never trade in old games. I also don't support game stops used games selection. I would have to say that they have a hand in this too. If I buy a new game and it sucks well atleast I know to rent the game made by that company next time.

Start buying new.



bannedagain said:

This is why I buy my games new, Never trade in old games. I also don't support game stops used games selection. I would have to say that they have a hand in this too. If I buy a new game and it sucks well atleast I know to rent the game made by that company next time.

Start buying new.


I actually find used game stores massively insulting, they charge anything up to 90% of RRP for a used game which in some cases will have free codes/DLC missing.  To top all of that off they're making huge profit and none goes back to the developer.  To me it's a slap in the face to both their customers by charging those prices and even bigger insult to publishers and developers.  I've bought two games used this generation, Uncharted DF which I couldn't obtain new at the time (pre Greatest Hits) and Mass Effect 2 (wanted it one day and couldn't find a new version anywhere in the city I was in, got lucky that the Cerberus code wasn't used).  I still feel annoyed I didn't think in advance and get these new when I had the chance.



Ail said:
ssj12 said:
Ail said:
naznatips said:

I don't think I've ever seen a journalist post something so horrible in my life. I don't even know where to start.

Frist, let me get the disclaimer out of the way: I have, many years ago, pirated games before. I was a stupid kid, and didn't care. I don't do that anymore, but I was not the devil incarnate like Sterling and twesterm believe. I certainly wasn't trying to harm the industry in any way. I was just young and silly and broke, and couldn't afford many games any way. In my adulthood I legally bought all of the handful of games I pirated as a child, generally on Steam. I'm not defending piracy as a practice at all. It's a bad thing, you shouldn't do it. I'm saying pirates aren't little demon's trying to destroy the industry. Maybe Jim Sterling is, though. 

I'm going to havve to break this into parts, because this rant might be explosively long and I don't want to miss any of the stupid opinions in this article, much less the factually incorrect bits. 

First of all, in his opening paragraph he points out that both Crysis and Killzone 3 were leaked onto the internet recently. Does he ever bring up Killzone 3 again? Nope. Or the presence of piracy on consoles and handhelds? Nope. Well let's look at that. Sony claims the PSP's abysmal sales are almost entirely due to piracy. Do I believe this? No, but I do know certain games have been pirated more than even the biggest of PC games. For example, Dissidia was pirated more than 5 million times... in Japan alone. Even Starcraft 2 wasn't pirated that much. Did that stop Dissidia from being profitable? Absolutely not. Similarly, the R4 on the DS is the simplest piracy tool ever made. No system hacks, no firmware hacks or rewrites, people can literally drop a rom onto a microSD and pop it the device straight into their DS, and with it games have been pirated hundreds of millions of times over the gerenation. And now we have Killzone 3 leaked and PS3's being cracked everywhere for the purpose of piracy. Why are PC gamers being singled out in this ridiculous attack again?

Now he goes on to examine how "cutthroat" the game industry is, and how if you aren't selling multi-millions, you don't make money. Wait, what? We're blaming PC, by far the cheapest HD development option, for the high barriers of entry now? Do you people have any idea what's been going on this generation? EA has lost billions of dollars, fired 1,500 people (more than the entire staff of Eidos). Speaking of Eidos, they would have been completely bankrupt if it weren't for SE buying them out. 2K has only ever made money two years (GTAIV and RDR) the entire generation and even then it wasn't much. Activision even lost money last year, and they're practically printing money with Call of Duty. The last two years EA has lost more than $1 billion. Ubisoft is barely scraping by breaking even, and only because of Assassin's Creed and their casual games like Just Dance. 

Those are by far console focused Western developers. The Japanese tend to do better, because they aren't functionally retarded. Okay, a little harsh, but seriously, what the hell is wrong with this side of the world that we can't budget our games for reasonable sales expectations? It's become exactly like the movie industry. The only people who can afford to make games are those who can afford to lose millions of dollars on them! With this, dozens of publishers have closed, thousands of developers are out of work, and the industry has shrunk signifficantly in the number of people making games. All of this is completely due to console development. So how about this devlish PC, with these stupid PC gamers that these ever so brilliant dying publishers are ignoring?

Valve just announced that they make more money per employee than Google or Apple. Judgingn by Forbes estimates of their profits, it's a lot more. Forbes estimates Steam made $1-$2 BILLION for Valve last year. That's just Valve's profits on the service alone. They take a 30% cut on every game sold, and people pay them for advertising on the front page. Just those factors, and the games they themselves have sold, have caused them to make $1-$2 billion, while EA lost $750 million. EA, the publisher who is actively avoiding Steam. Who refused to put Dragon Age II on it in time for the Signature Edition sale. The Sims bombed on consoles, but sold 4.6 million copies on PC. It was one of EA's only profitable pieces of software in 2009, a year in which they only lost $350 million. How about Blizzard? They sold over 4.5 million copies of Starcraft 2. World of Warcraft is the most profitable piece of entertainment in the history of mankind. 

But that's just big guys. Let's talk about the kind of environment, and potential profits available for the little ones. Jim Sterling, in his infinite wisdom, decided to use World of Goo as an example of the doom of PC. World of Goo made more than 50% of its money, by 2009, on the 2D Boy Website, and Steam (thanks to a Steam sale). About 30% of their total money was WiiWare, which is a pretty solid cut. Then they did the Humble Indie Bundle, which alone made $1.3 million. about 1/4 of which went to 2D Boy. In the end they made the vast majority of their profits on PC, and PC is where it's still selling. 2D Boy themselves are staunch defenders of PC, and Steam, and very vocal against the effectiveness of DRM and the silliness of blaming piracy for the inability to make profit. Or how about Outerlight, a small indie developer who made a clever game, only to have their company destroyed by Ubisoft and their ideas stolen for AC:B source. Outerlight wished they had just ignored publishers, and worked with Steam alone, which brings me to my real point:

You want to know what's destroying this industry? It's publishers. It's EA, Activision, 2K, and Ubisoft. It is the companies who strived so hard to set up gaming into an oligarchy, where only the rich and powerful survive and the indie developer has no chance. You want to know why they hate PC? Because it's where the indie games thrive. It's where Magicka can sell 30,000 copies in one day on Steam and makes a profit, and sells 200,000 copies in 2 weeks and already funds the little guys' next 3 games. It's where Super Meat Boy can double its sales on all consoles combined. It's where Minecraft, made by one man, can make more money than Mass Effect 2 and its tens of millions of dollars in budget. It's where those huge publishers, those massive companies who want gaming to be like the movie industry, have no control. It is the great equalizer. The place where they have to compete with the little guys. Where they have to sell on a platform (Steam) which is supportive of those little guys. It's the place where they can't turn the gaming industry into the movie industry, ruled by the strong and impossible for the weak to enter.   

You want to blame piracy for the lack of publisher support on PC? Ridiculous. Blame fear. Fear that the horrible business models that those giant publishers created under the assumption that they could shut out the little guys forever, are now causing their impending doom. PC is an open platform. It's a platform that supports creativity, and quality, and small budget games better than anywhere else in the industry. Where people can make money without getting a publisher at all. So don't give me this crap. Don't tell me PC is inconsequential. Steam is the largest digitial distribution software service in the world. PC is stronger than ever, and far more profitable than consoles now. Piracy is bad. But this article is a crime in itself. 


No it's not and before you go about stating this, how about you give us some numbers instead of making things up ?

Because all your numbers are far off...

Google makes 500k /employee...

At 250 employee for Valves all we can deduce is that Valve made more than 125 million profit last year.

it surelly didn't make the billions you are claiming or the company would not be valued around 2-4 billion$. That is straight financial fact, no company is valued at twice it's profit....

Steam is  at best the third behind the AppStore and XBoxLive...( Steam revenue was shy of 1 billion in 2010, XboxLive was slightly over 1 billion$..)

You article is not journalism, just you making up facts as you write them. Nowhere in the Forbes interview does it say Steam made 2-4 billions. What the article says is that Forbes estimates the value of the company to be in the 2-4 billions range, that is totally different......


Since when does revenue = market share?  If it was Opera would have the largest internet browser market share since it was sold to Nintendo Wii users.

Market share is the amount of product/downloads moved that. Which I'm pretty sure, if you want to include the AppStore which isn't even in the same market as PC or console DD game services, Steam is #2 in the market. Easily #1 since the AppStore isn't a game service.


Naz said :

"Steam is the largest digitial distribution software service in the world."

He didn't say gaming, PC or anything..

I'm not sure what your Opera comments means as Opera isn't getting big bucks out of being on the Wii..

As for revenue as a mean to identify who has the bigger marketshare that is the usual measure used in those cases.

But if you only want to use the number of downloads then Steam becomes a distant third behind the AppStore and the Android market place ( we're talking millions of downloads vs hundred of millions, it's not even in the same ballpark at all.. Steam is Tiny as a digital distribution service compared to those other two...).

And if you use revenue, I maintain that Steam is third behind the AppStore and XboXlive ( I have no clue where the Android marketplace stands so I am not including it).

And even if you want to restrain it to gaming, there are more games being downloaded from the AppStore or the Android Store than from Steam, once again.....



Opera was a bad example...  just thought of that before I even saw you replied. Internet browsers in general would have fit better. Market share is calculated in users and not revenue similar to how search engines and operating systems are.

Can you really call 80% of the titles on Android or Apple's markets games? Most of them are trash, most are free, most aren't full experiences worth a damn. Then the other half of each store are apps. Plus they are apart of a completely different market then PC or Console. It's the mobile market which is not direct competition to standard DD services anyways as they focus on making money off ad revenue versus product versus Steam, D2D, Impulse, XBL, and PSN.

Still Steam is the largest free to use digital distribution platform that is not locked to a single platform (can be used on multiple setups from old to new, Mac, Linux, or Windows). It hold the lead above everyone. It is the reason PC isn't dying because of all the indie titles versus publisher titles. It offers more titles, better value, and more advanced features. Even if you do include the PSN and XBL, Steam has a wider variety of software available with full integrated support. They also have over 30 million active accounts meaning that aren't fudged numbers like XBL and the PSN which either include forum registered accounts, duplicated, and inactive accounts. Yes the PSN has "65 million accounts" but some are forums only PSN accounts, others are dups for other regions of the world, others are banned, and others are inactive PSN accounts from users who no longer have PS3/PSP/forum accounts. Microsoft fudges their numbers in similar fashion. User numbers from Microsoft and Sony cannot be trusted and therefore basically void unless you can figure out roughly how many millions of accounts to remove off their amazing sounding numbers to make them close to valid.

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1232

http://store.steampowered.com/news/4502/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Steam_titles

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/search-engine-market-share.aspx?qprid=4

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp



PC gaming is better than console gaming. Always.     We are Anonymous, We are Legion    Kick-ass interview   Great Flash Series Here    Anime Ratings     Make and Play Please
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slowmo said:
bannedagain said:

This is why I buy my games new, Never trade in old games. I also don't support game stops used games selection. I would have to say that they have a hand in this too. If I buy a new game and it sucks well atleast I know to rent the game made by that company next time.

Start buying new.


I actually find used game stores massively insulting, they charge anything up to 90% of RRP for a used game which in some cases will have free codes/DLC missing.  To top all of that off they're making huge profit and none goes back to the developer.  To me it's a slap in the face to both their customers by charging those prices and even bigger insult to publishers and developers.  I've bought two games used this generation, Uncharted DF which I couldn't obtain new at the time (pre Greatest Hits) and Mass Effect 2 (wanted it one day and couldn't find a new version anywhere in the city I was in, got lucky that the Cerberus code wasn't used).  I still feel annoyed I didn't think in advance and get these new when I had the chance.


Ya, used game shops are pretty bad. Even my local PlaynTrade which is normally decent raised their prices and no longer have ANY decent games. They brought Afrika back up from $25 to $50.



PC gaming is better than console gaming. Always.     We are Anonymous, We are Legion    Kick-ass interview   Great Flash Series Here    Anime Ratings     Make and Play Please
Amazing discussion about being wrong
Official VGChartz Folding@Home Team #109453