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Forums - General - Mubarack steps down.

Kasz216 on 16 February 2011
elticker said:
Kasz216 said:
elticker said:
Kasz216 said:
elticker said:
Joelcool7 said:
elticker said:
 


oh yah did you see the video of the car of the US embassy running down protesters,

As Kaz said it was stolen. But even if it wasn't did you see the video's of Egyptian protestors attacking pretty much anyone foreign? CTV, CBC, Fox, CNN all were reporting that their journalists were being attacked by Egyptian protestors. A group of Canadian journalists were pulled from their cars and the translator said the egyptians planned on killing them, luckily the army intervened and rescued them.

Canada, the US and other countries only supported the Egyptian Government all these years because they were the Government. You say Egyptian's don't like the US playing around with your countries affairs, as such what did you expect them to do? Come into Egypt topple the Government and insert democracy? Wouldn't that have been meddaling in your affairs? Or should the US have boycott your Government and sanctioned the shit out of it?

The US Canada and other governments respected Egypts soveirnty and did not meddle in your countries affairs anymore then any other country. Sure they signed peace agreements and trade but they always respected your countries independance.

Egyptians would be just as mad if America meddled and intervened militarily to instal democracy. The US and Canada helped get Mubarak to step down. They have done everything they could for the egyptian people.

 

P.S- which University in Canada you going too?

actually mubaraks fucked the US. They ordered him ot step down and give power to sulieman on thursday, he instead gave it to the army on thursday but his son edited the clip so that he didn't resign and give power to sulieman. that was on thursday, the next day sulieman read the speach which gave power to the army and both army generals in control, al musheer tantawy and al fariq anan don't like israel as they have fought against them in the 1973 war. 

Waw what accusation you give us, these were the secret police who were attacking reporters, let me ask you a question if it was us the people attacking news reporters then why wasn't the american embassy destroyed or israeli embassy for this matter, why wheren't protesters burning israeli and american flags, why weren't we holding anti american signs? give me a reason for why we didn't do that and would attack news reporters.

im applied for U of T for biological science along with western ontario, algoma for computer science and waterloo for mechanical. 


How did that "fuck the US."  They wanted him to give the power to someone else and transition to democracy.  He did that.  When they suggested sulemin he was the only one at the time that made sense.  Then the military decided they'd be willing to make a transition, and they let them do it.  I find it odd, you couldn't find a way to argue with any of my post, yet still continue with the general ignorance about America's perferred position in this.   Cognitive Dissonance, much?  I mean, this could and up being a positive huge change in your countries history.  You'd think you'd want to have an accurate view of it.  I mean, if you were Egypt i'd get it... cause Obama really botched it by reacting too much behind the scenes and sending the wrong person to demand his removal.  However from someone in Canada... it should be pretty eaisly to see the truth.

I mean heck.  The US has been funding "Pro Democracy" groups in Egypt for quite a while now... well before these protests.  They gave money to the regime too... but as part of a trade deal for expedited travel through the Suez and for the peace treaty with Israel.

http://www.thenational.ae/news/worldwide/middle-east/us-gave-material-support-to-pro-democracy-groups-in-egypt-wikileaks

Besides, unlesess the generals plans are to "Start a war with Israel immediatly before putting in a democracy" I don't see how it would really matter who the middle men are.... and if they did that, there would be about zero percent of democracy happening.

actually the US didn't even know there was going to be a revolution they were just playing cath up as everytime they made a stance they were too late, they didn't predict that there was goign to be a revolution which then cause criticism to the CIA. America wanted pwoer to sulieman because he is their partner and israel wanted him too as the wikileaks leaked documents shown. You as a foreign citizen don't understand what mubarak meant when he said in his third speach that he will not listen to america, so instead of putting sulieman in power like he told them he put the army, i am not a politicain but i do know that the army generals don't like the USA intervention in egyptain affairs.

They know have much less control over egypt than what they would have had if sulieman was president or when mubarak was president. That is how you fuck someone over by decreasing their control of a situation.Also egypt isn't going to war with israel anytime soon. america was trying to convince mubarak for a long time to do economic reforms and introduce democracy so the country stays stable and no revolution occurs anyone thinking otherwise isn't thinking deep enough. why the fuck would the USA want to risk a revolution in which the muslim brotherhood could get to power or another power which might risk the stability of the middle east especailly that we as egyptains were callign for years for a change in gass prices that we sell gas to israel for we were selling at a third of the global rpice and egyptains wanted us to sell it at full price but mubarak refused.


Your complete willing ignorance of your own countries affairs is staggerng and sad.  The proof is eaisly laid before you and you ignore it.

The US has been for years, trying to get situations like this to happen and force a transition to democracy.  Which, you know.  I just specifically proved that and you want to ignore it.

Of course the US didn't know this revolution was going to happen.  However, they wanted it to.  They didn't "scramble to make policy" so much as they did, work behind the scenes the majority of the time because they weren't sure of the protestors resolve.

Why you chooes to be so willingly ignorant about your own country, I swear I don't know.  With such ignorance your only likely to repeat the mistakes of your past.

The truth is, i've provided two entire posts of sourced facts which have gone unrebutted, and you've replied with nothing but made up, unsubstantiated claims which I can only assume is spurred by nationalistic pride,  but unfortunitly completely seperated from reality.

It's harsh, but it's true. 

forget it i am done arguing with you cause you don't think politics, you think from a user end not controller end. No country wants a stable country which is allied and depends on it to change to a democratic country which might oppose it. You think mubarak could have stayed in power without huge US and israel backing then i am not even going to reply cause if the US wanted mubarak down they could have cut aid and stopped backing mubarak. You know what the US said when the protests started before the revolution, they said there has to be economic reforms, they didn't say egypt has to turn to democracy. Not replying if you qoute cause i am sick of trying to get a point to you but you obviosly didn't read alot about politics, so i can't argue with someone who doesn't know how politics work.


You keep saying that... yet you offer no actual proof.  While i've provided proof.

Once again, the US funded pro democracy groups in Egypt.  Fact.

A fact you ignore. 

I actually read a lot about politics though... that's why I know this shit, rather then being stuck in a Cold War mindset.  The difference is, I read a lot of different sources of news and read about the "behind the scenes" talk.  I'm not sure what your reading to get that kind of outdated information.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/01/obamas_behind-the-scenes_effor.html

Notce, this was back last month yet that Obama was pushing for Mubarack to step down... and give power too.... the army.  Screw America huh?  Looks like Obama was pushing for what happened before you even knew it was an option.

Would Mubarack stayed in power if the US didn't make trade deals with him?  Well yeah.  Look at every other Dictator that has stayed in power that we do try and ignore.

The differnce would of been the people of Egypt would of been even poorer.  The military would of been seen even more as the "only solution to financial stability" and those who worked for him would of been more loyal to him.

Isolation help dictatorships, not hurt them.



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Kasz216 on 16 February 2011
elticker said:
Kasz216 said:
SamuelRSmith said:
elticker said:


yeah if we rise as a nation all the arab world rises, if we fall like we have been for decades all arab nations fall. We depend greatly on america which is bad, if we get a proper president and ministry we won't need to depend on them as much, if we don't need o depend on them our influence on the world increases as we have the suez canal, and arab countries should follow our course of action if we become good. take a look at iraq now its fucked up though it has one of the largest if not the largest reserves of oil in the world, Saddam was stupid to attack kuwait and give america a reason to start a war with it especailly that the whole arab world was against iraq.


Nahh... we (the UK), have been at the US's bossom for many-a decade, it's cozy and the milk is rather nutritious.

Also, I wouldn't say Iraq is doing so bad for itself right now in comparrison.  Iraq is a real success story actually.  It went rougher then it should of been.  However, Iraq's doing great...

and it's biggest buisness partner when it comes to that Oil?

China.  Blood for Oil my ass.

The Truth is... Bush actually seems like he was as simple as "I wanted to invade countries to found democracies."  And of course, just like someone who says "I want to watch all the top 100 movies ever" he started with the ones most interesting to him.

its doing bad, over a million civilains dead, they are poor because of corruption, fixed elections even though iraq has one of the biggest oil reserves in the world, so yes they are doing quite poor, by the way you can't force democracy then its not a democracy people should want democracy. The whole reason for the invasion of iraq is oil and any politic would tell you that. Iraq didn't have nukes and weren't even close, even though US reported that iraq had nukes.

1) The US is wrong for not helping Democracy in Egypt.  (Even though as i've proved and you've ignored, they have done a lot for it.)

2) The US is wrong for helping Democracy in Iraq.  (Where yes, they DID want a Democracy.)


Seriously?



ProdigyBam on 16 February 2011
elticker said:
ProdigyBam said:
elticker said:
ProdigyBam said:
Slimebeast said:
elticker said:

 

The Jews came there first, long before Arabs. In my personal opinion Arabs don't even really belong in Egypt. Arabs conquered Egypt, made the population Islamic and forced the Christians to submit and become a silent minority and I don't think that's a good thing.

It's saddening to hear you as an Egyptian are talking about a future war with Israel only because you are so upset about the Palestinian situation. Only because they're your Arab brothers.

No wonder Israel sees the whole Arab/muslim world as a threat.

Lol, this guys pathetic, he says Israel "should not steal land from the original owners (palestinians)"

first, the jews were there first and second

you (as a arab) dont have the right to live in egypt according to yourself, because the egypt was the land of the real egypts the coptic christians and you "stole" it from them

wtf i didn't steal anything, as you are too ignorant to even ask me what my descendance is. My descendance is pure egyptain before arabs went to egypt then one of the spanish travellers married my great great great great grandmother and so on until i was born. So i have the right to live in egypt by any measure you apply. I am not going to comment on anymore of the crap your spewing out, you know that crap your talking about who the land originally was. So let me see if i understand corectly that means if i turn jewish ot have a jewish son he could just go to palestine and fuck over anyone who isn't jewish and take over their land right. 

Yeah sorry, but most of the people in egypt (the arabs) dont have the rights (according to you) to live there, because they took it from the coptic christians in the islamic expansion (war)

and israel isnt stealing anyones land and palestine does not exist, just as palestinian people are syric or jordanian arabs, but the two nations didnt want them, when the british mandate ended and israel was formed

personally right know all i want is egyptto advance and become a superpower like USA after 20 to 30 years.I am going to become a brain surgeon in canada and later start my own hospital in egypt. i want to jion the military for a year as the conscription law states but my dad is opposing me. To this day it still is very hard for me to believe that mubarak is gone, him staying all this time in power, dam. I am so happy that he didn't give his power to sulieman who is just another dictator who won't do as the people want. till now the army is doing great, they dissolved the parliamentary, they also stopped working with the doustour, they made a group of educated people with leading guy being a very good and respectable guy to change the dostour within 10 days and then it will be put to a public vote. the army is doing a great job to date

a superpower like the us, are you kidding me? haha

if the muslim brotherhood will be the reign government(and thats how its going to be, im pretty confident), then bye bye tourism and that means bye bye money



Fedor Emelianenko - Greatest Fighter and most humble man to ever walk the earth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVVrNOQtlzY

Rath on 16 February 2011
elticker said:
 

its doing bad, over a million civilains dead, they are poor because of corruption, fixed elections even though iraq has one of the biggest oil reserves in the world, so yes they are doing quite poor, by the way you can't force democracy then its not a democracy people should want democracy. The whole reason for the invasion of iraq is oil and any politic would tell you that. Iraq didn't have nukes and weren't even close, even though US reported that iraq had nukes.


Anybody who knows anything will tell you invading Iraq for oil doesn't make sense. Not only did they not claim the oil reserves but the Iraq war cost much more than the potential value of the oil. In any case Saddam was already selling oil to the USA.

Reality is that the war was a combination of horrible intelligence (possibly on purpose from the CIA) and Bush making an (initially succesful) move for political popularity, he thought he needed to be seen to be doing something about terrorism. It was only later that the American population realised that Iraq had nothing at all to do with terrorism.

 

Edit: @Kasz. The USA without a doubt supported Mubarack and his regime. They were of the belief that a stable dictatorship was better than instability. It's actually one of the few areas where I supported Bush's foreign policy - he strongly pressured Egypt for democratic reform, something that previous administrations and the Obama administration refused to do. Apart from Bush the USA did not really support democracy in Egypt.

Also supporting democracy in Iraq is somewhat different from invading Iraq and imposing democracy.



Kasz216 on 16 February 2011
Rath said:
elticker said:
 

its doing bad, over a million civilains dead, they are poor because of corruption, fixed elections even though iraq has one of the biggest oil reserves in the world, so yes they are doing quite poor, by the way you can't force democracy then its not a democracy people should want democracy. The whole reason for the invasion of iraq is oil and any politic would tell you that. Iraq didn't have nukes and weren't even close, even though US reported that iraq had nukes.


Anybody who knows anything will tell you invading Iraq for oil doesn't make sense. Not only did they not claim the oil reserves but the Iraq war cost much more than the potential value of the oil. In any case Saddam was already selling oil to the USA.

Reality is that the war was a combination of horrible intelligence (possibly on purpose from the CIA) and Bush making an (initially succesful) move for political popularity, he thought he needed to be seen to be doing something about terrorism. It was only later that the American population realised that Iraq had nothing at all to do with terrorism.

 

Edit: @Kasz. The USA without a doubt supported Mubarack and his regime. They were of the belief that a stable dictatorship was better than instability. It's actually one of the few areas where I supported Bush's foreign policy - he strongly pressured Egypt for democratic reform, something that previous administrations and the Obama administration refused to do. Apart from Bush the USA did not really support democracy in Egypt.

Also supporting democracy in Iraq is somewhat different from invading Iraq and imposing democracy.


Although Bush was the strongest, he wasn't the one who started the freedom push.

Besides, like I showed via documents, either in this thread or the other.  Obama specifically negoatiated for this outcome to happen.

 

Though yeah, Bush was the strongest at this.  Ironically, looking back on the Bush regime... after years of trying to figure out "what the fuck" he was doing and why he started the Iraq war.... it really does seem like it was a silly reason.   Just based on the belief that somehow not only could the US spread democracy based on Military action but that it was are fundamental duty to do so since we could.

Well that and he was apparently lied too by an Iraqi spy.  http://www.newsroomamerica.com/story/101684.html

 

Iraq being the case, because of the above lies and... well when most people make a decsion like that they usually go with the most appealing choice to them and not the logical choice.