By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sony - Sony On The Hunt For All The Hackers

Spankey said:
daroamer said:
Spankey said:
whatever said:
 

The whole "licensing" software model has been an attempt to bypass the laws of ownership and fair use.  It's complete BS.  There is no reason I can't reverse engineer a piece of software I bought.  If someone uses that for illegal purposes, then they are at fault, not me.  I haven't stolen anything.  To suggest that this is stealing is just ridiculous.

A company should never be able to tell you how you can use something that you've bought, period.  Company profits should never be placed above consumer rights.

100% corect.

however, you have not bought the software. you have bought the right to use the Software according to the terms laid out and accepted by you when you handed the money over and fired up the software.

all the 'owners' of the games who have paid up however many dollars from a store to get the disks have not bought the software. They've bought a licence to use it, and that licence is subject to various terms and conditions, exactly like the OS software on the PS3.

It would be a completely different story if the OS software or any software for that matter was released as open source, bit it isn't, and even the use of open source software is subject to certain terms and conditions.

If you went to Sony, the devs or whoerver owns the IP and actually bought the full rights to the game, it wouldn't cost you a measly $50 or whatever, the cost could run into the millions. Perhaps then you could reverse engineer to your hearts content

No, incorrect.

Fair use:

"Fair use, a limitation and exception to the exclusive right granted by copyright law to the author of a creative work, is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders. Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship."

Reverse engineering has historically been protected under fair use.  That includes reverse engineering of software.

http://www.yalelawjournal.org/the-yale-law-journal/content-pages/the-law-and-economics-of-reverse-engineering/

Again, Sony is not suing them for finding the key, they are trying to sue for distributing it.

way to skip basically all i wrote and miss my point entirely lol.

tl/dr version: he said he bought the software, but he hasn't.

anyway, as to your DMCA and fair use statement:

part 5 of the journal extract refers:

In 1998, Congress outlawed the reverse engineering of technical protections for digital versions of copyrighted works and prohibited both the creation and distribution of tools for such reverse engineering (except in very limited circumstances) as well as the disclosure of information obtained in the course of lawful reverse engineering.

also in pg 61 of the PDF:

The DMCA now permits circumvention for seven purposes: legitimate
law enforcement and national security purposes,288 achieving program-toprogram
interoperability,289 engaging in “ legitimate” encryption
research
,290 testing the security of computer systems,291 enabling nonprofit
libraries, archives, and educational institutions to make purchasing decisions,292 allowing parents to control their children’s use of the
Internet,293 and protecting personal privacy

do you really think these clowns and GeoHot were doing this for engaging in “ legitimate” encryption
research?
  Legitimate? Really? come on.

Maybe I misunderstood your point because it seemed to me you were arguing that you didn't really buy the software, you only licensed it, therefore you weren't allowed to reverse engineer it.  I was arguing that under fair use you didn't need to have bought the source code in order to reverse engineer it.

In any case, one of the fair uses of reverse engineering is for the purposes of being able to run homebrew, which is exactly what they were trying to do.  Whether they puposefully or inadvertantly opened the door to piracy and cheating is something that needs to be proven in a court of law but there is certainly no guarantee they will be able to do that.  In the past the courts have tended to side with the "hackers" for lack of a better term.

http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise25.html

"It is clear that, at least in the Ninth Circuit, legitimate reverse engineering to learn how to interoperate with another computer program is a fair use. Congress appears to agree. In the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, as part of the anticircumvention provisions added as Section 1201 of the Copyright Act, Congress specifically recognized reverse engineering needed for interoperability as an exception to the anticircumvention rules:"



Around the Network
Spankey said:

do you really think these clowns and GeoHot were doing this for engaging in “ legitimate” encryption
research?
  Legitimate? Really? come on.


Like I said, some people are going to find whatever excuses to bash Sony.



LivingMetal said:
Spankey said:

do you really think these clowns and GeoHot were doing this for engaging in “ legitimate” encryption
research?
  Legitimate? Really? come on.


Like I said, some people are going to find whatever excuses to bash Sony.


You could already play "backups"(including games released after 3.41) of games with the PSjailbreak/PSgroove program. You could not run homebrew or a linux os(around the corner) without the keys. Its kind of hard to make a case that they were working on alternate OS's just to play backups since the ability was available for everyone months before.



Getting an XBOX One for me is like being in a bad relationship but staying together because we have kids. XBone we have 20000+ achievement points, 2+ years of XBL Gold and 20000+ MS points. I think its best we stay together if only for the MS points.

Nintendo Treehouse is what happens when a publisher is confident and proud of its games and doesn't need to show CGI lies for five minutes.

-Jim Sterling

CDiablo said:
LivingMetal said:
Spankey said:

do you really think these clowns and GeoHot were doing this for engaging in “ legitimate” encryption
research?
  Legitimate? Really? come on.


Like I said, some people are going to find whatever excuses to bash Sony.


You could already play "backups"(including games released after 3.41) of games with the PSjailbreak/PSgroove program. You could not run homebrew or a linux os(around the corner) without the keys. Its kind of hard to make a case that they were working on alternate OS's just to play backups since the ability was available for everyone months before.


And your point?



So a judge denied Sony's request for the IP addresses and personal information of people who posted, viewed or commented on videos/articles about the hacks from sites such as Google/Youtube and Paypal.  Wow, the judge must be so anti-gamer and a complete Microsoft or Nintendo fangirl to deny Sony such a reasonable request.

I for one am shocked.



Around the Network
deskpro2k3 said:
whatever said:
deskpro2k3 said:
whatever said:
Ssliasil said:

This topic makes it blatantly clear which poster's are hackers and which are not lol.

Hell yes, go Sony!  Already kicked Geo-Hotz ass, keep it up.

What people dont realize, this is all for far more than just the playstation 3 - this help'sall companies, in both gaming and pratical electronic fields.

This topic makes it blatantly clear which poster's don't understand the concept of ownership and fair use.  I should be able to do whatever I want with the things I own as long as I'm not breaking any laws.  Just the act of "jailbreaking" anything should NEVER be illegal.  Pirating games should be illegal and punishable.  Opening up a console for other uses, even if it enables piracy, should not.  I don't understand how, as a consumer, you can be OK with this.

Do you really want a corporation telling you what you can and can't do with your own stuff?  Because that is where this is leading if this is allowed to stand.  You want to tinker with your car or some electronic device?  You could end up in the same place as Geohot.

And no, I've never hacked any gaming device or pirated any games.

Go Sony, take away our rights as consumers!


OK I'll give you an example. Lets say I picked up the keys to your house. I went ahead and made copies of that key and give them out to people. Since I'm able to do whatever I want with it, it is not breaking the law. Right?

 

Absolutely not.  You don't own my house, so you don't have the right to give away keys to it.  Try again.

Exectly, that is my point. And you're against Sony for what they're doing?  You're confusing..

I don't think he is trying to be confusing Deskpro2k3. He's just trying to explain things in law and the fact your analogy isn't accurate.

A more accurate analogy (in current law) is this...

Sony have made a lock for your front door which has a key which is no one is able to copy.

Everyone's home is secure, the world is happy.

Geohot is a Sony Lock owner who is curious how to make a copy of the key so he disables HIS lock on HIS door and figures out how the mechanism works.

Having done this he realises what is required for key duplication and constructs a machine which will perform this for him.

Feeling rather pleased with himself he then publishes the Blu Prints for said machine on to the Internet. This ensures anyone with a modicum of tech know-how can create the same duplicating key machine.

SONY go mental as the main selling feature of their locks is redundant.

GeoHot has NOT copied anyones keys but his OWN. He had not broken any laws in lock disassembly.

He is not guilty of any CRIME.



daroamer said:

So a judge denied Sony's request for the IP addresses and personal information of people who posted, viewed or commented on videos/articles about the hacks from sites such as Google/Youtube and Paypal.  Wow, the judge must be so anti-gamer and a complete Microsoft or Nintendo fangirl to deny Sony such a reasonable request.

I for one am shocked.

:O I don't think its right to prosecute viewers, as there is no law against reading an article.  I searched what the contents of the new update were right when it came out and wound up with a page that had a couple people talking about how far they were into hacking it already and what they were doing...granted it made absolutely zero sense.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

No Cypher, you're confused too. My example is so straight forward to understand. Let me break it down for you. He owns the hardware yes, not the software. Now the analogy of a lock.. Creating a device to open it and then sharing it.. The software is the key. He doesn't own that key. Now these root keys which in your analogy open locks, they are used to verify that a game is genuine, and with that knowledge, hackers and pirates can essentially trick the console into recognizing counterfeit software as the real deal. You can choose to download firmware updates, but if your hardware is compromise, the secuirty update will not allow you to log in online.

So in other words, somebody found the keys to the game developers shops. He went ahead and made copies of it. Or shows people how to create one. Do you understand now? Look, it is just an example.



LivingMetal said:
CDiablo said:
LivingMetal said:
Spankey said:

do you really think these clowns and GeoHot were doing this for engaging in “ legitimate” encryption
research?
  Legitimate? Really? come on.


Like I said, some people are going to find whatever excuses to bash Sony.


You could already play "backups"(including games released after 3.41) of games with the PSjailbreak/PSgroove program. You could not run homebrew or a linux os(around the corner) without the keys. Its kind of hard to make a case that they were working on alternate OS's just to play backups since the ability was available for everyone months before.


And your point?

Sony is wasting money and doing irrepreable damage to its name cause they are idiots.



Getting an XBOX One for me is like being in a bad relationship but staying together because we have kids. XBone we have 20000+ achievement points, 2+ years of XBL Gold and 20000+ MS points. I think its best we stay together if only for the MS points.

Nintendo Treehouse is what happens when a publisher is confident and proud of its games and doesn't need to show CGI lies for five minutes.

-Jim Sterling

Baalzamon said:
daroamer said:

So a judge denied Sony's request for the IP addresses and personal information of people who posted, viewed or commented on videos/articles about the hacks from sites such as Google/Youtube and Paypal.  Wow, the judge must be so anti-gamer and a complete Microsoft or Nintendo fangirl to deny Sony such a reasonable request.

I for one am shocked.

:O I don't think its right to prosecute viewers, as there is no law against reading an article.  I searched what the contents of the new update were right when it came out and wound up with a page that had a couple people talking about how far they were into hacking it already and what they were doing...granted it made absolutely zero sense.

Hopefully you got that my post was extremely sarcastic :P I didn't think a /sarcasm at the end was necessary.

Of course it was going to be denied, the request was ridiculous and was seriously overstepping some bounds.  That's what I've been saying all along.