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Forums - General - Democratic congresswoman shot in Arizona.

axt113 said:
rocketpig said:

There are a whole lot of people here confusing the economic ideals and social ideals of fascism. Not everything is clearly "right wing" or "left wing". In the case of fascism (and Nazis in particular), there's a decided split between those ideals, one being slightly left-leaning while the other is far right.


Well if we go by the Nolan chart that Richard showed, Fascism would be the lower left of the box, low economic and personal freedom, so in that sense it would be split as it would incorporate the lack of freedom from both the left and right wing

Pretty much. When put into the context of western politics, Fascism is neither right nor left wing, as it splits the two in a most unfavorable way for its population. There is nothing in American politics that really compares to it.

In short, arguing that he was either a left or right winger because of his reading choices is pretty asinine. The guy was obviously just insane and a political radical. The Tea Party, Democrats, whatever... they're not to blame here.




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Kasz216 said:

riiiiiight.

I believe the last "arguement" we had involved me posting many many historians and scients views about how Galieo was persecuted for attacking the pope and poor science and not his actual views, since scientificically his premise was actually demonstraitably wrong experiments wise until the development of stronger telescopes many many years later, and the fact that Copernicus theories were taught everywhere for about 40-50 years until his trial.  After which it was banned.  Probably due to the fact that his science actually was wrong.  His main proof that the earth revolves around the sun being that there is only one high tide. (When anyone could tell you there were two high tides, everywhere.)

And your response was basically "Nu-uh, this one line in his conviction says it was for teaching helicoentrism."  As if there has never been a case for someone being convicted for something for show when the reason for them being convicted was clearly something else and then left the thread in embaressment.

It's just an old and predictable patern.  The scary thing is, unlike Numonex... I'm pretty sure your trying to be serious with half this stuff.

Laughably stupid.

Galileo used scientific methods that were way ahead of his time (not to mention ahead of the Catholic Church).  Galileo was able to prove that the Earth rotated around the sun with many different experiements, most notably the phases of Venus.  Galileo's ideas conflicted with the primitive ideology of the Church at the time, and thus he was punished and not forgiven by the church until a short time ago.

Of course Galielo made mistakes, so did Einstein and Newton.  But Galileo's contributions and discoveries greatly advanced science, so much so that scientists such as Stephen Hawking credit him with starting modern science with his accurate natural laws and mathematical methods.  And any non-pro Medieval Catholic Church historian would say the same, even Pope John Paul II admitted errors in the Catholic Church scientific positions in the trial against Galileo.

Of course Kasz thinks that he is smarter than scientists like Hawking and knows more about Church history than Pope John Paul II, just as any ultimate fool would think.  But i don't get paid to educate stupid people, so I'll stop for now.  I wouldn't know how to act if you were any other way.



badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

Defend it would be that one believes such a prayer is an appropriate one to use.  I would speak mainly from a Christian perspective here, and what Jesus taught.  It would be like the correlary to Godwin's Law, that states that once Hitler is brought you, the discourse has gone too far and can't be justified in any manner to continue.  I do see the issue with Gifford, and what came out of it, as a time to review current political language being used. 

Actually, Godwin's Law only says that as an online discussion continues, the probability of a comparison to Nazis approaches 1. See NinjaguyDan's post above.

Maybe there is a good reason for people to cool their rhetorical jets. I'm all for it if it helps people focus on issues rather than personal attacks (although Jack Shafer has a great article up on Slate in defense of heated political rhetoric), but not for this reason. This kid was so far gone that it's impossible for me to believe that current mainstream political debates/shouting matches/whatever have anything to do with his shooting up a Safeway.

And already people who want to silence others are sharpening their legislative knives. Just look at Bob Brady's suggestion that it should be illegal to draw bullseyes or crosshairs on a map. Not only is it yet another allusion to the harebrained theory that this kid, with his long history of mental problems and deviant behavior, was inspired by a relatively obscure map on Sarah Palin's website, it's sadly ironic that he would do this in "honor" of Giffords, who stood on the House floor to read the First Amendment not even a week ago.

I posted that because I've been reading a lot of revisionist history here.  Those are the words of someone who lived through it.

Fascism = CORPORATISM    Benito Mussolini created and defined that word.   It is the exact opposite of left-wing socialism.

Communists - Check!

Socialists - Check!

Unions - WIP



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axt113 said:
rocketpig said:

There are a whole lot of people here confusing the economic ideals and social ideals of fascism. Not everything is clearly "right wing" or "left wing". In the case of fascism (and Nazis in particular), there's a decided split between those ideals, one being slightly left-leaning while the other is far right.


Well if we go by the Nolan chart that Richard showed, Fascism would be the lower left of the box, low economic and personal freedom, so in that sense it would be split as it would incorporate the lack of freedom from both the left and right wing

Assuming that Wikipedia is at least on the same street as the ballpark, here is what it says about Fascism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

 

It is an entirely different system that would put a nation above all else, as opposed to Communism that lifts the working man (proletariet) globally.  In both systems, you end up having a system where the state makes all the decisions. 



rocketpig said:
axt113 said:
rocketpig said:

There are a whole lot of people here confusing the economic ideals and social ideals of fascism. Not everything is clearly "right wing" or "left wing". In the case of fascism (and Nazis in particular), there's a decided split between those ideals, one being slightly left-leaning while the other is far right.


Well if we go by the Nolan chart that Richard showed, Fascism would be the lower left of the box, low economic and personal freedom, so in that sense it would be split as it would incorporate the lack of freedom from both the left and right wing

Pretty much. When put into the context of western politics, Fascism is neither right nor left wing, as it splits the two in a most unfavorable way for its population. There is nothing in American politics that really compares to it.

In short, arguing that he was either a left or right winger because of his reading choices is pretty asinine. The guy was obviously just insane and a political radical. The Tea Party, Democrats, whatever... they're not to blame here.

There isn't quite anything like Fascism OPENLY in the American political systemt that is relevant.  You have skinheads and other white ultranationalists that push things in that area, but the are marginal.  However, corporations are a key element of fascism, so when you have too much corporate influence on political systems, you will get Fascism creeping in.  You have elite on top managing to want to shape the world in their own ideals, and shape laws to benefit their ownership in corporations.  You have individuals like Murdock, who run Newscorp and use it as a mouthpiece to persuade public opinion to his own view of things.  So, you get Fascism creeping in through the back door, without people knowing it.



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richardhutnik said:
rocketpig said:
axt113 said:
rocketpig said:

There are a whole lot of people here confusing the economic ideals and social ideals of fascism. Not everything is clearly "right wing" or "left wing". In the case of fascism (and Nazis in particular), there's a decided split between those ideals, one being slightly left-leaning while the other is far right.


Well if we go by the Nolan chart that Richard showed, Fascism would be the lower left of the box, low economic and personal freedom, so in that sense it would be split as it would incorporate the lack of freedom from both the left and right wing

Pretty much. When put into the context of western politics, Fascism is neither right nor left wing, as it splits the two in a most unfavorable way for its population. There is nothing in American politics that really compares to it.

In short, arguing that he was either a left or right winger because of his reading choices is pretty asinine. The guy was obviously just insane and a political radical. The Tea Party, Democrats, whatever... they're not to blame here.

There isn't quite anything like Fascism OPENLY in the American political systemt that is relevant.  You have skinheads and other white ultranationalists that push things in that area, but the are marginal.  However, corporations are a key element of fascism, so when you have too much corporate influence on political systems, you will get Fascism creeping in.  You have elite on top managing to want to shape the world in their own ideals, and shape laws to benefit their ownership in corporations.  You have individuals like Murdock, who run Newscorp and use it as a mouthpiece to persuade public opinion to his own view of things.  So, you get Fascism creeping in through the back door, without people knowing it.

Sure, on the fringes, there are fascist leanings from various groups as well as corporations. My point is that, overall, there isn't anything comparable in the majority.




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richardhutnik said:
axt113 said:
rocketpig said:

There are a whole lot of people here confusing the economic ideals and social ideals of fascism. Not everything is clearly "right wing" or "left wing". In the case of fascism (and Nazis in particular), there's a decided split between those ideals, one being slightly left-leaning while the other is far right.


Well if we go by the Nolan chart that Richard showed, Fascism would be the lower left of the box, low economic and personal freedom, so in that sense it would be split as it would incorporate the lack of freedom from both the left and right wing

Assuming that Wikipedia is at least on the same street as the ballpark, here is what it says about Fascism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

 

It is an entirely different system that would put a nation above all else, as opposed to Communism that lifts the working man (proletariet) globally.  In both systems, you end up having a system where the state makes all the decisions.


Only economically with regards to communism, if you read the communist manifesto this the intent:


1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.

 

In fact Marx was concerned that Democracy in a capitalism is only democracy for the rich, and that it is controlled by coporate interests, so the idea that fascism and Marxism lead to the same result is false, as Fascismdid not do away with the wealthy and ifact rejects class warfare, whereas communism does not

 



NinjaguyDan said:
badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

Defend it would be that one believes such a prayer is an appropriate one to use.  I would speak mainly from a Christian perspective here, and what Jesus taught.  It would be like the correlary to Godwin's Law, that states that once Hitler is brought you, the discourse has gone too far and can't be justified in any manner to continue.  I do see the issue with Gifford, and what came out of it, as a time to review current political language being used. 

Actually, Godwin's Law only says that as an online discussion continues, the probability of a comparison to Nazis approaches 1. See NinjaguyDan's post above.

Maybe there is a good reason for people to cool their rhetorical jets. I'm all for it if it helps people focus on issues rather than personal attacks (although Jack Shafer has a great article up on Slate in defense of heated political rhetoric), but not for this reason. This kid was so far gone that it's impossible for me to believe that current mainstream political debates/shouting matches/whatever have anything to do with his shooting up a Safeway.

And already people who want to silence others are sharpening their legislative knives. Just look at Bob Brady's suggestion that it should be illegal to draw bullseyes or crosshairs on a map. Not only is it yet another allusion to the harebrained theory that this kid, with his long history of mental problems and deviant behavior, was inspired by a relatively obscure map on Sarah Palin's website, it's sadly ironic that he would do this in "honor" of Giffords, who stood on the House floor to read the First Amendment not even a week ago.

I posted that because I've been reading a lot of revisionist history here.  Those are the words of someone who lived through it.

Fascism = CORPORATISM    Benito Mussolini created and defined that word.   It is the exact opposite of left-wing socialism.

Communists - Check!

Socialists - Check!

Unions - WIP

Musolini cut his teeth on Marxism, being a prominent Italian Socialist before he switched gears completely for some reason and launched the Black Shirts and coined the term Fascism, presenting it as his alternative between liberal democracy and left socialism



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

dsister said:

interesting...

A sinister shrine reveals a chilling occult dimension in the mind of the deranged gunman accused of shooting a member of Congress and 19 others.

Hidden within a camouflage tent behind Jared Lee Loughner's home sits an alarming altar with a skull sitting atop a pot filled with shriveled oranges.

A row of ceremonial candles and a bag of potting soil lay nearby, photos reveal.

Experts on Sunday said the elements are featured in the ceremonies of a number of occult groups.

 



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/10/2011-01-10_chilling_shrine_in_madmans_yard.html#ixzz1Adx0wEPG

Looks like an average backporch with a halloween decoration that was never packed away too me.
The only difference between that back area and my Grandma's old place is that skull.



^Much like the neocons and their switch to conservatism