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Forums - Gaming - Sega: Madworld possible would have done better on 360 or ps3.

Resident_Hazard said:
HappySqurriel said:

Personally, I see publishers/developers blaming the platform for a games poor sales is (effectively) like a professional sporting team blaming "The Referees" for failing to make the playoffs ... Certainly the platform can have an impact, but countless decisions they made in the production and release of the game all have a much larger impact. Off the top of my head, here are the reasons I think Madworld struggled

 

1) Art Style. From Okami to Killer 7, countless games that create a non-photo realistic art style end up suffering. Potentially, down the road, a couple of big breakout hits with their own style will change this; but (for now) pushing a distinctive style is a good approach to have an unsuccessful game.

2) New IP. Across all platforms, most of the most successful third party games have been a sequel to an established IP; and most of the successful new IPs have been one of the best games of the year and had a massive marketing campaign.

3) Unconventional Genre. While there are elements of Madworld's game play which are similar to some popular games, I don't think there is a game that has ever been like Madworld which has been successful.

4) Short and yet highly repetitive game. After I completed Madworld I thought that the reviewers were not harsh enough on this title because by the time you were getting close to the end of the game it was getting pretty boring. To make the game (much) more enjoyable at its length it needed (nearly) twice as much to do in the game, and to make the game really a worthwhile purchase it needed (about) twice as much game play.

5) Insignificant local multiplayer and no online multiplayer. Look at the most successful games on any console and notice that the majority of these games have multiplayer modes which are as important (or more important) than their single player game. 

 

If these factors remained unchanged it is unlikely that the increase in sales Madworld would see by being released on the HD consoles would compensate for the increased development cost.

I would like to add the following caveats:

1.  Countless games going for photo-realism end up suffering.  Unique art styles tend to sell games, and often have.  Borderlands, for instance, managed to set itself apart in large part due to it's unique art direction.  Vast numbers of Wii games have sold millions with graphics that are anything but photorealistic.

2.  You're right on this one.  Gamers are all-too-often close-minded buffoons who prefer buying sequels (or endless Square-Enix or Nintendo remakes) over original titles.  I, personally, go out of my way to support more unique titles--even if they fall a little short of AAA-status or quality. 

3.  MadWorld is, essentially, a beat-em-up, which is far from being an unconventional genre.  This, and it's offshoot style--hack-n-slash titles--have been staples of video games since the 80's.  Double Dragon, Splatterhouse, Final Fight, Streets of Rage, old TMNT games.  For the modern era, you can't say that this "genre" isn't successful since both Ninja Gaiden and God of War fall easily into it.  I love this style of game, personally.  I've always loved beat-em-ups.  What hurts MadWorld in this is the somewhat cumbersome positioning of the camera during gameplay as opposed to God of War or Splatterhouse (which despite reviews, I felt was a really fun title).  But seriously, it's no different from Ninja Gaiden, God of War, Conan, Splatterhouse, Devil May Cry, etc.  Mash buttons, beat up countless bad guys, perform finishers.  In MadWorld, the finishers were the whole point.

4.  I think gamers complaining about short length of games these days are either kids that don't know what it was like in the "good ol' days," or jaded gamers who don't know how good they have it.  Most games from the 80's and early 90's, when they could be finished (as in, when they had an end), weren't that long.  Contra takes about 20-25 minutes.  Donkey Kong Country 1 takes about 2-4 hours.  Vectorman takes about an hour and a half with enough skill.  Like I said earlier in this thread, more and more, I'm liking somewhat shorter games.  That means I can get my enjoyment out of them, finish them, and earn my Achievements and be able to move on without one game draining all of my free time.  New  Splatterhouse, Luigi's Mansion, Pikmin, Left 4 Dead, etc--these are all short games that are a lot of fun.  MadWorld could've used some bonus modes to keep it going, and more variety.  As for repetitive?  Most games are repetitive to a point.  Metroid Other M was repetitive nonsense from start to finish.  Run through boring corridor, mash shoot button.

5.  The Grand Theft Auto franchise found immense success sans multiplayer.  Devil May Cry, Dead Space, Dead Rising, Portal, Ninja Gaiden, Bioshock 1, God of War, Metroid Prime 3, etc, etc.  Your fifth point doesn't really carry much weight since multiplayer alone has no bearing on whether or not a game is successful.  Does it help Super Mario Galaxy?  Hell no.  Did it help Metroid Prime 2?  Pppff!  Out of all my games, I've purchased maybe two games (out of over 650 spanning 30 game systems) with multiplayer being the focus.  And the joke was on me for one of them, since Crackdown didn't actually have a single-console multiplayer mode, so I played it by myself the whole time anyway.  Borderlands remains the only game of this generation that I bought primarily for the multiplayer so my girlfriend and I can play it together (and we do).  For that matter, games with an overly-heavy emphasis on multiplayer may not fare so well--like that somewhat idiotic revamp of Shadowrun.  Would multiplayer have helped MadWorld?  Maybe--but multiplayer on the Wii generally means "family game time" since Nintendo once again dropped the ball on online gaming.  So, in this regard, having better multiplayer probably wouldn't have done much of anything for the game.

I don't doubt that games can be successful while having one or two of these "Problems", but as you add more and more the likelihood of success becomes smaller and smaller; and certain combinations are more problematic than others.

Being a game that has a short single player experience and no significant multiplayer means that people will not see much value in buying it new, and will hold off buying it used or simply rent the game. Individuals who do buy the game are probably going to lend it out or sell it used because they have no reason to hold onto it. Certainly, there have been successful third party games without significant mutliplayer modes, and there have been successful third party games without long single player campaigns, but how many successful third party games (for any platform) have there been without significant multiplayer modes or long single player campaigns?

In the past there were many games that could be finished in a very short period of time, but the brutal difficulty level of most of these games meant that there was still value in these games. Many classic NES and SNES games could be finished in under 30 minutes or an hour, but it usually took several weeks of playing to even complete the game; and several more weeks of playing before you mastered the game to beat them in these time lines. In most modern games there is little challenge and you perform a series of tasks to push forward the storyline; and a videogame which you can complete in a weekend is a poor value for most gamers.


A videogame that is a new IP, has a distinctive art style, and is not a clone/copy of a popular game is also a very dangerous combination. Certainly, it works for some games (and has worked very well for a select few) but gamers often want to know whether they will like a game before they buy it; and the more difficult it is for them to determine that the more likely the game is to struggle to find sales. Okami, Killer 7, and Jet Grind Radio are (probably) the "classic" examples of this; but when you see this combination together games tend to be far less successful than their quality would suggest. Certainly, Madworld was not a completely foreign concept to most gamers but that isn't necessary; all that a game needs to be is different enough that it intimidates its potential audience.

 

 

Ultimately, my point isn't to trash Madworld (or Sega for trying with Madworld) but it is more a statement that Madworld has a lot going against it to be successful on any platform. You can see my point by listing all of the games that have been successful in the past 2 generations that are a new IP from a third party publisher that have a distinctive artistic style, a short single player game, and no significant multiplayer.



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Resident_Hazard said:
jarrod said:
Resident_Hazard said:

I'm not really "championing" Haze's sales.  Just using it as an example to show that there is clearly a market for FPS titles on the PS3 where there isn't on the Wii.  "There's enough of a market for FPS titles on the PS3 that even the crap sells pretty well."  People are going to buy crappy games no matter what, and the Wii is proof of that.  Carnival Games should never have sold even 10 copies, let alone the millions it's pushed.

For what it's worth, while I'm still at Best Buy, in the games department, I do my best to steer Wii shoppers away from crap.  You want to see championining?  I suggest Kirby's Epic Yarn constantly

Haze is about as apt an example as Red Steel was for Wii.  Both games were terrible and sold largely because they launched early, had little competition, and were hyped to hell by platform evangelists.  A theoretical Haze 2 would also probably sell about as well as Red Steel 2 did (ie: barely)... neither proves anything about the suitability or market presence for FPS on their respective platforms.  

I think a sequel to Haze would sell better, comparitively, than Red Steel 2, if Haze went through the same kind of "quality assurance" overhaul that Red Steel 2 did.  On the HD consoles, people still actually buy sequels.  Consumers--and gamers specifically--stopped buying sequels on the Wii over a year ago.  Frankly, each follow-up on the Wii tends to sell roughly half--or much lower than--what the previous title did.  From Resident Evil: Chronicles games to Super Mario Galaxy 1 & 2.  Many sequels on the HD systems are selling roughly the same as their predecessors (maybe only slightly less)--and the longer they're out, the more they'll sell.  I'm pretty confident that over time, Bioshock 2 and Fallout New Vegas will close in on their predecessors.  Left 4 Dead 2 handily outsold Left 4 Dead 1.  Halo Reach easily toppled ODST, and it might even catch up to Halo 3.  The Call of Duty games certainly show no signs of slowing in sales. 

Now, if all you want is "suitability of an FPS title" on a given console, clearly, the HD systems are where people want to play their FPS games, since all of, what, two FPS titles on the Wii managed to sell a million copies?  It's just Metroid Prime 3 and Red Steel I think.  One of them was carried on the popularity of a solid franchise, the other had no competition and was carried by hype. 

Haze is also not quite in the same category as Red Steel.  When the PS3 launched, there were other FPS games for competition.  Red Steel had zero competition from other FPS titles, and almost not other competition in general at it's launch. 

Oh please, Haze 2 would bomb like none other due to the negative light the brand sat in after people were duped into buying the first.  Just like with RS2.  Unlike RS1 though, Haze was considered a sales disaster, so the brand's pretty toxic and I doubt it'll ever happen.

And Red Steel launched against COD3 actually... y'know, the game that sold pretty much the same across Wii and PS3?  FarCry was there for launch too.

Galaxy 2 is selling on comparably with the original btw.  It's actually doing better in Japan, about the same in Europe, and a bit worse in America, though Galaxy 1 had a holiday season to push it harder and faster upfront.  You're also comparing half a year to over 3 years of sales there.   RE DarkSide Chronicles sold almost identically launch aligned though... again, Wii games have legs, you can't just compare a sequel to it's predecessor that's been out years and expect the same total.  I'd agree, Wii's software market is softer for sequels in general, but you're two examples here don't show that at all when looked at past a superficial level.

I do like how you crucify the six month old Galaxy 2's sales, then immediately turn around and assure us all that legs will carry an actual declining sequel like Bioshock 2 to it's predecessor's ltd though.  Neat how that works!

Meanwhile, how did Resistance 2 do compared to the first btw?  How did Singularity sell?  Wolfenstien?  Condemned 2?  Bloodstone?  Dark Void?  Quantum of Solace?  Vanquish?  The Club?  Dead Space?  Lost Planet 2?  They're all huge multi-million sellers right, I mean they're having the fortune to release on HD shooter utopia?  Where even the "crap sells pretty well"?   ;)



oniyide said:

@resident hazard  man you are opening pandora's box with your comments!! keep em coming, but really I think its on devs to work a system and as sad as it is alot of these companies do put some 2nd string devs on Wii so its pretty much amatuer hour in that regard. I do agree with enjoying what you get to an certain extent.

Developers have gotten out of Wii exactly what they've put into it, no more, no less.  Hopefully they don't make the same mistakes next gen, those that are still around next gen anyway...



I'm not even sure why Sega is bothering to comment on this even after their string of PS360 bombs. What's the point? The people begging for a port aren't going to buy it.



Tag - "No trolling on my watch!"

ClaudeLv250 said:

I'm not even sure why Sega is bothering to comment on this even after their string of PS360 bombs. What's the point? The people begging for a port aren't going to buy it.

And even with Platinum/Clover, the one genuine hit they have is Bayonetta. Even Vanquish is just barely selling as well as Madworld, and that's from a genre with the likely greatest audience on those two systems. I think most of these games are more artsy than mainstream, even Okami, a game I really like. Okamiden opened well thanks to actual marketing, but had just so-so legs (though that just applies to Japan so far).



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

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LordTheNightKnight said:
ClaudeLv250 said:

I'm not even sure why Sega is bothering to comment on this even after their string of PS360 bombs. What's the point? The people begging for a port aren't going to buy it.

And even with Platinum/Clover, the one genuine hit they have is Bayonetta. Even Vanquish is just barely selling as well as Madworld, and that's from a genre with the likely greatest audience on those two systems. I think most of these games are more artsy than mainstream, even Okami, a game I really like. Okamiden opened well thanks to actual marketing, but had just so-so legs (though that just applies to Japan so far).

I've heard nothing but praise for Vanquish. The sad part is that there isn't even a fraction of outrage for this game's performance compared to Madworld.  This just gives credence to the port beggars doing so only because they don't want the game on the Wii. If Madworld were a PS360 title, it would have sold less and the major difference is that no one would have cared. Not a single fanboy or journalist.



Tag - "No trolling on my watch!"

Rubang made a good point, there is far too much competition that would outshine Madworld heavily, it would have likely done worse on the HD twins than better ...



 

Me thinks IndustryGamers took a quote out of context to bash the Wii.  It seems to me to have done that more than once in the past.  To me, the remark seems to be just a reflection about a relatively poor selling game and how it might have done better elsewhere. The same discussion could be had about many games on every system.  I am sure that EA is wondering about putting MySims Skyheroes on the PS3 (0.01M) and Xbox 360 (0.01M). The only reason there is not speculation about how well they would have done on the Wii is because they were also released for the Wii -- and have outsold the others combined by 7-8 times (0.15M).

MadWorld had some advertising in the US. But its price dropped quickly (less than a month after its release), meaning it was not thought to be selling well by someone in a decision-making capacity.

 

Mike from Morgantown



      


I am Mario.


I like to jump around, and would lead a fairly serene and aimless existence if it weren't for my friends always getting into trouble. I love to help out, even when it puts me at risk. I seem to make friends with people who just can't stay out of trouble.

Wii Friend Code: 1624 6601 1126 1492

NNID: Mike_INTV

poor business decision by SEGA?

 

never~![/sarcasm]



jarrod said:
oniyide said:

@resident hazard  man you are opening pandora's box with your comments!! keep em coming, but really I think its on devs to work a system and as sad as it is alot of these companies do put some 2nd string devs on Wii so its pretty much amatuer hour in that regard. I do agree with enjoying what you get to an certain extent.

Developers have gotten out of Wii exactly what they've put into it, no more, no less.  Hopefully they don't make the same mistakes next gen, those that are still around next gen anyway...

Developers will do the same thing with the next Nintendo console as this one:  Test the market and the uniqueness that Nintendo will no doubt create, and then, when ignored in sales for Mario Party 53, Wii HD Shlockfest, or Repetitive Plotline Zelda Game 17, the publishers will move the developers to more profitable consoles where their games have a chance of being noticed outside of numerous Nintendo franchises.

Gamers will do the same thing as well:  Buy the new Nintendo system, be all hyped up for the new promises, and then ignore most 3rd party efforts in favor of Nintendo franchise retreads, then later, bitch and moan how there "aren't any games" on the system.  So, it'll follow the same cycle as the N64, GameCube, and Wii (with the exception that very few people bought the fucking awesome GameCube).