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Forums - General - Three Israelis lynched on way to a pub

RageBot said:
Joelcool7 said:

It goes both ways the jewish settlers do equally horrific things to the palestinians and the palestinians retaliate with equally horrific things. Both sides attack each other mercelessly and refuse to compromise. The best thing that could happen is an immediate ceasation of settlements and a two state solution pushed through.

But I think it's gone to far for even a two state solution. Groups like Hamas wouldn't cease hostilities even if Israel agreed to roll back settlements, and Israeli settlers would likely say screw you to the government and keep attacking palestininians.

The hatred is just to strong. I mean seriously Mickey Mouse in the Gaza strip encourages kids to become suicide bombers. I doubt that even with a two state solution that their would be peace for a good hundred to two hundred years. The hate is just too strong!

I agree with most of everything you wrote above, but I can't really recall a situation in which the settlers attacked and tried to kill an innocent bystander that they had no reason to suspect.
(While in the times of the second intifada, a lot of suicide bombers infiltrated into settlements and murdered pepole over there).

As an Israeli myself, I agree that we should let go of the settlements, but more due to international pressure and the fact that protecting them requires a lot of resources that could be spent on other things, like populating the southern regions of Israel.

However, I really don't think that it will help negotiations with Palestinians in the slightest, I want to ignore Hamas (who put the destruction of Israel as one of the main focuses of the organization), because even when it comes to Mahmud Abas, he refuses to acknolwedge Israel's right to exist, especially as a jewish state.
As long as this thought process rules the Palestinian leaders, I really don't think that the Israeli government should do anything that harms the well-being of it's citizens...

You can't really just ignore Hamas as long as they are the democratically elected government of Palestine.  Even if the PLO wanted too they couldn't enforce a deal on the West Bank, and they're too foolish to make seperate deals.

The world is trying too by not recognizing them, but it's not tenable and if anything only boosts their popularity.

Of course recognizing them also means making the west bank responsible for anything they do.  Which would be sad, but would also lower their popularity... because right now they can play it both ways, build improvements and help people and attack without penalty, outside of Israel strikes which they don't care about because it only helps their cause and they don't actually give a shit about the people of Palestine.



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MrBubbles said:

Well, it wasnt being applied to any palestinians, actually.  To my understanding (of jerusalem and the wording of the article) these were all arab-israelis.  So its just a reference to the israelis that participated in this crime, from the young child to the old man.  They seem more akin to a pack of rabid dogs, to be honest.  And people dont typically wait for a rabid dog to kill someone/something before they deal with it.

I think you'll find many of them - and almost certainly the ones who did this crime - consider themselves Palestinian by nationality even if they are Israeli citizens.

Palestinian doesn't just mean person who lives in the land governed by the PA, it refers to a people.



Rath said:

Palestinian doesn't just mean person who lives in the land governed by the PA, it refers to a people.


A people who weren't seen to exist as a distinct national and ethnic group until Israel was founded. Funny, that. It's almost as if something dishonest were going on.



Kudistos Megistos said:
Rath said:

Palestinian doesn't just mean person who lives in the land governed by the PA, it refers to a people.


A people who weren't seen to exist as a distinct national and ethnic group until Israel was founded. Funny, that. It's almost as if something dishonest were going on.

Well having a country established right on top of you probably does build up a national identity pretty fast.



Rath said:

Well having a country established right on top of you probably does build up a national identity pretty fast.


Needing an excuse to demonise said country also helps to speed up the identity building process, I've heard. As does not being allowed to live in any other Arab state.

I'm sure that the situation could have been dealt with much more easily if Egypt and Syria, two real countries, had offered to take care of the Arabs in Palestine, but that might have made it harder to justify bombing Israel. We couldn't have that, could we?



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Kudistos Megistos said:
Rath said:

Well having a country established right on top of you probably does build up a national identity pretty fast.


Needing an excuse to demonise said country also helps to speed up the identity building process, I've heard. As does not being allowed to live in any other Arab state.

I'm sure that the situation could have been dealt with much more easily if Egypt and Syria, two real countries, had offered to take care of the Arabs in Palestine, but that might have made it harder to justify bombing Israel. We couldn't have that, could we?


To be honest the Israelis and Arabs didn't really need an excuse to hate each other in the first place =/

The bad blood goes back before the creation of Israel and that certainly worsened things. The fact that the Palestinians are stateless is wrong, but can't really be blamed on Egypt and Syria. I'm assuming you mean that Egypt and Syria (why Syria by the way? Jordan is more logical) should expand to encompass the West Bank and the Gaza Strip (I'm hoping you don't mean the Palestinians should be forced to leave these places...?), this doesn't really work because the Palestinians do now have a national identity - even if they didn't before.

Also I don't think you can blame all of the violence in the Middle East on the Arab states wanting to bomb Israel, the violence has definitely gone both ways and been caused by both sides.



Kasz216 said:
RageBot said:
Joelcool7 said:

It goes both ways the jewish settlers do equally horrific things to the palestinians and the palestinians retaliate with equally horrific things. Both sides attack each other mercelessly and refuse to compromise. The best thing that could happen is an immediate ceasation of settlements and a two state solution pushed through.

But I think it's gone to far for even a two state solution. Groups like Hamas wouldn't cease hostilities even if Israel agreed to roll back settlements, and Israeli settlers would likely say screw you to the government and keep attacking palestininians.

The hatred is just to strong. I mean seriously Mickey Mouse in the Gaza strip encourages kids to become suicide bombers. I doubt that even with a two state solution that their would be peace for a good hundred to two hundred years. The hate is just too strong!

I agree with most of everything you wrote above, but I can't really recall a situation in which the settlers attacked and tried to kill an innocent bystander that they had no reason to suspect.
(While in the times of the second intifada, a lot of suicide bombers infiltrated into settlements and murdered pepole over there).

As an Israeli myself, I agree that we should let go of the settlements, but more due to international pressure and the fact that protecting them requires a lot of resources that could be spent on other things, like populating the southern regions of Israel.

However, I really don't think that it will help negotiations with Palestinians in the slightest, I want to ignore Hamas (who put the destruction of Israel as one of the main focuses of the organization), because even when it comes to Mahmud Abas, he refuses to acknolwedge Israel's right to exist, especially as a jewish state.
As long as this thought process rules the Palestinian leaders, I really don't think that the Israeli government should do anything that harms the well-being of it's citizens...

You can't really just ignore Hamas as long as they are the democratically elected government of Palestine.  Even if the PLO wanted too they couldn't enforce a deal on the West Bank, and they're too foolish to make seperate deals.

The world is trying too by not recognizing them, but it's not tenable and if anything only boosts their popularity.

Of course recognizing them also means making the west bank responsible for anything they do.  Which would be sad, but would also lower their popularity... because right now they can play it both ways, build improvements and help people and attack without penalty, outside of Israel strikes which they don't care about because it only helps their cause and they don't actually give a shit about the people of Palestine.

if the republicans in a quarter of the states kill all the democrats, they should be recognised as a legitimate elected government?



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MrBubbles said:
Kasz216 said:
RageBot said:
Joelcool7 said:

It goes both ways the jewish settlers do equally horrific things to the palestinians and the palestinians retaliate with equally horrific things. Both sides attack each other mercelessly and refuse to compromise. The best thing that could happen is an immediate ceasation of settlements and a two state solution pushed through.

But I think it's gone to far for even a two state solution. Groups like Hamas wouldn't cease hostilities even if Israel agreed to roll back settlements, and Israeli settlers would likely say screw you to the government and keep attacking palestininians.

The hatred is just to strong. I mean seriously Mickey Mouse in the Gaza strip encourages kids to become suicide bombers. I doubt that even with a two state solution that their would be peace for a good hundred to two hundred years. The hate is just too strong!

I agree with most of everything you wrote above, but I can't really recall a situation in which the settlers attacked and tried to kill an innocent bystander that they had no reason to suspect.
(While in the times of the second intifada, a lot of suicide bombers infiltrated into settlements and murdered pepole over there).

As an Israeli myself, I agree that we should let go of the settlements, but more due to international pressure and the fact that protecting them requires a lot of resources that could be spent on other things, like populating the southern regions of Israel.

However, I really don't think that it will help negotiations with Palestinians in the slightest, I want to ignore Hamas (who put the destruction of Israel as one of the main focuses of the organization), because even when it comes to Mahmud Abas, he refuses to acknolwedge Israel's right to exist, especially as a jewish state.
As long as this thought process rules the Palestinian leaders, I really don't think that the Israeli government should do anything that harms the well-being of it's citizens...

You can't really just ignore Hamas as long as they are the democratically elected government of Palestine.  Even if the PLO wanted too they couldn't enforce a deal on the West Bank, and they're too foolish to make seperate deals.

The world is trying too by not recognizing them, but it's not tenable and if anything only boosts their popularity.

Of course recognizing them also means making the west bank responsible for anything they do.  Which would be sad, but would also lower their popularity... because right now they can play it both ways, build improvements and help people and attack without penalty, outside of Israel strikes which they don't care about because it only helps their cause and they don't actually give a shit about the people of Palestine.

if the republicans in a quarter of the states kill all the democrats, they should be recognised as a legitimate elected government?

Yes.  Because they are the current government.  How many dictators do we recognize?



Kasz216 said:

You can't really just ignore Hamas as long as they are the democratically elected government of Palestine.  Even if the PLO wanted too they couldn't enforce a deal on the West Bank, and they're too foolish to make seperate deals.

The world is trying too by not recognizing them, but it's not tenable and if anything only boosts their popularity.

Of course recognizing them also means making the west bank responsible for anything they do.  Which would be sad, but would also lower their popularity... because right now they can play it both ways, build improvements and help people and attack without penalty, outside of Israel strikes which they don't care about because it only helps their cause and they don't actually give a shit about the people of Palestine.

Actually it seems (and I didn't expect it either) that ignoring Hamas is working in a way. The people of Gaza know that Hamas is in charge and are starting to blame them for the fact that they are worse off than the people in the West Bank. From what I've read (and to be honest the information was sketchy at best) Hamas is much less popular now than they were when elected.



Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
 

You can't really just ignore Hamas as long as they are the democratically elected government of Palestine.  Even if the PLO wanted too they couldn't enforce a deal on the West Bank, and they're too foolish to make seperate deals.

The world is trying too by not recognizing them, but it's not tenable and if anything only boosts their popularity.

Of course recognizing them also means making the west bank responsible for anything they do.  Which would be sad, but would also lower their popularity... because right now they can play it both ways, build improvements and help people and attack without penalty, outside of Israel strikes which they don't care about because it only helps their cause and they don't actually give a shit about the people of Palestine.

Actually it seems (and I didn't expect it either) that ignoring Hamas is working in a way. The people of Gaza know that Hamas is in charge and are starting to blame them for the fact that they are worse off than the people in the West Bank. From what I've read (and to be honest the information was sketchy at best) Hamas is much less popular now than they were when elected.

No kidding?  Surprising to say the least.

Cool though, glad to be wrong.