By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Microsoft - Microsoft: “No Reviews of Kinect!”

daroamer on 24 October 2010
Smidlee said:
bobbert said:
daroamer said:
Smidlee said:
bobbert said:
Smidlee said:
bobbert said:
Smidlee said:

Well for one thing , kinect doesn't see things in 3-D no more than another other web cam. The claim Kinect "sees" in 3D is a little misleading as most people think 3D as like how they see. Kinect cam sees a completely flat image.  There are ways to try tracking something 3d on a flat image . For example Move uses the size of the ball on the image to determine where the move controller is in Z-axis. The more pixels the ball image uses the closer the ball is relative to the camera.  Kinect tracking the Z axis how the strength of IR light bouncing off an object.

 I can think of two major disadvantages of Kinect tracking you sitting vs standing up.

 1)  You are closer to surrounding objects including what you can sitting on. (standing puts distance between you and other objects)  While our brain can do this with ease even with one eye close yet it's a lot tougher for and  computer to do this.

 2) Your images itself takes up less pixels on the camera which means  Kinect is recieving  less information.

So while Kinect may work sitting down I doubt it will be able to track as well as standing up. This is good reason Microsoft wanted developers to develop games at least at launch standing up.


really? so any camera can see 3D as well as kinect's RGB camera near-IR emitter & IR sensor? Both cameras are working at all times. You might want to actually look at the kinect compenent list before acting like you know how that Z-axis tracking works. Your hypotheses might be more believable

I watch the video of how Kinect works and they make it clear this is  how it works. The problem with using RGB camera when it comes to depth  is most homes has multiply light sources makes is extremely difficult to track Z axis. Our brain can do this with ease with just one eye even though you don't see  true 3D with one eye. The brain uses lines, lighting, shapes, etc.  Even super computers have trouble take two images and make a true 3D image with any kind of speed  like our brain does.

 Kinect software is the tough part as it takes all those pixels and guesses the position of the player's body.


You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. All of the videos are very generic descriptions, and I have seen some that are so WAAAAAAAY off of what is happening that it's funny.

First, we have the primesensor-like unit:

And unless you know how to do fourier transforms, I can't even begin to describe to you how it works for detecting 3D. Also, more details about the chip:

Notice the optional RGB, that is because it is using a standard RGB camera like a standard webcam. Instead of just using depth, MS is using the RGB camera to get depth and color, taking advantage of that optional output. From what I read, there is discrepancy on whether they use IR light or light that is considered not IR, but outside the visible spectrum of 99.999% of humans.

Now, does that seem like your normal webcam? Well wait, there's more. There's a camera that detects IR, with a filter blocks out visible light (probably including the near-IR light emitted from the primesense setup). This is to determine whether the object in front of you is human or not, where different body parts are, etc.

Also, random lights in different parts of the room are not going to effect detection. The way you described it made me laugh so hard. The bright lighting has more to do with the noise of the detector. I'm sure it's a very high SNR detector, and that's why it's a low megapixel rating. There's a reason why you can get a point-and-shoot camera with a 16MP rating, yet it is difficult to find a professional camera with more than a 10MP rating. As the light detected by the detector goes up, the blips of noise become large hunks of noise. The problem with your lamp idea is that the lens will focus all of that light to a small portion of the detector and have a little effect on the noise of the rest of the image. It's when you flood the entire room with light that you will have an issue.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and clarifying your BS. Now please stop talking out of your ass. Also don't tell someone that they're wrong when you obviously have no freaking clue yourself.

They have stated that Kinect works in the dark and low light thus it does not track you with the RGB cam.  (Your brain can easily see depth with just one eye so it is possible to detect depth with RGB range.) It's just more simple if you track with only one color ... thus IR light.  Notice the RGB cam is right beside the IR cam; as close as possible so the images are same. RGB cam is to put your image (other images) on screen while IR cam does the tracking.

 This still doesn't show Kinect sees  3D no more that a RGB cam. Thus it misleading to claim Kinect sees 3D as there is difference between detecting depth (one eye)  which Move and TrackIR does with a different method and seeing 3D (two eyes).


This is simply wrong.

It's not tracking "colour" at all.  It's tracking DEPTH.  It's working more like sonar, the Kinect IR transmitter is bathing the room with IR light,  that light is bouncing back to the depth sensor.  The closer something is to the camera, the brigher it appears.  Look at the IR image again, as stuff moves away from the camera it gets darker.  It's clearly evident that the brightest thing in the image is the pillow or whatever on the bottom right and the darkest thing is the far wall.

If you were to light the scene with a bright light on the wall behind the people, an RGB camera would see them as darker than the background and according to you it would think the wall was closer than they are.  The IR camera would still see the scene with the correct depth as it's not seeing visible light at all, it's ignoring all those wavelengths.

The ability to read the depth of the scene is what allows it generate a 3D map of the scene.


Like I said, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. That yellow image is a computer generated image of the distance to each object. The IR emitter is more like a projector that emits patterns. The patterns get reflected off of each object differently and get detected by the camera. The chip then performs a mathematical analysis on the resulting distorted pattern to determine distances to different points in the room.

It's clearly evident from the color scale of the computer generated image, that the chip can properly decode the pattern and produce accurate results of the distances to each object.

It's not like sonar because sonar uses time-of-flight. Time of flight for light requires very expensive hardware and could not use a standard webcam. It is this technology which conquers a huge mathematical challenge, and does so in a very short amount of time with inexpensive hardware that made the Kinect feasable.

TrackIR 5 has IR emitter and IR cam.  you seem to point out as I  the software does the works  as with Move, TrackIR, and wii-mote. Obviously there are limits to Kinect as of now or we would have launch titles with players sitting down.

The only problem with it was that the software was using the pelvis as the root point of the skeleton so that if the game was tracking the whole body then it might have issues when that point was obscured by someone sitting on a couch.

They fixed the problem by changing the root joint to the neck.  This has nothing to do with how Kinect is seeing the environment,  simply that it couldn't track what it couldn't see.



Around the Network
daroamer on 24 October 2010
bobbert said:
daroamer said:
Smidlee said:
bobbert said:
Smidlee said:
bobbert said:
Smidlee said:

Well for one thing , kinect doesn't see things in 3-D no more than another other web cam. The claim Kinect "sees" in 3D is a little misleading as most people think 3D as like how they see. Kinect cam sees a completely flat image.  There are ways to try tracking something 3d on a flat image . For example Move uses the size of the ball on the image to determine where the move controller is in Z-axis. The more pixels the ball image uses the closer the ball is relative to the camera.  Kinect tracking the Z axis how the strength of IR light bouncing off an object.

 I can think of two major disadvantages of Kinect tracking you sitting vs standing up.

 1)  You are closer to surrounding objects including what you can sitting on. (standing puts distance between you and other objects)  While our brain can do this with ease even with one eye close yet it's a lot tougher for and  computer to do this.

 2) Your images itself takes up less pixels on the camera which means  Kinect is recieving  less information.

So while Kinect may work sitting down I doubt it will be able to track as well as standing up. This is good reason Microsoft wanted developers to develop games at least at launch standing up.


really? so any camera can see 3D as well as kinect's RGB camera near-IR emitter & IR sensor? Both cameras are working at all times. You might want to actually look at the kinect compenent list before acting like you know how that Z-axis tracking works. Your hypotheses might be more believable

I watch the video of how Kinect works and they make it clear this is  how it works. The problem with using RGB camera when it comes to depth  is most homes has multiply light sources makes is extremely difficult to track Z axis. Our brain can do this with ease with just one eye even though you don't see  true 3D with one eye. The brain uses lines, lighting, shapes, etc.  Even super computers have trouble take two images and make a true 3D image with any kind of speed  like our brain does.

 Kinect software is the tough part as it takes all those pixels and guesses the position of the player's body.


You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. All of the videos are very generic descriptions, and I have seen some that are so WAAAAAAAY off of what is happening that it's funny.

First, we have the primesensor-like unit:

And unless you know how to do fourier transforms, I can't even begin to describe to you how it works for detecting 3D. Also, more details about the chip:

Notice the optional RGB, that is because it is using a standard RGB camera like a standard webcam. Instead of just using depth, MS is using the RGB camera to get depth and color, taking advantage of that optional output. From what I read, there is discrepancy on whether they use IR light or light that is considered not IR, but outside the visible spectrum of 99.999% of humans.

Now, does that seem like your normal webcam? Well wait, there's more. There's a camera that detects IR, with a filter blocks out visible light (probably including the near-IR light emitted from the primesense setup). This is to determine whether the object in front of you is human or not, where different body parts are, etc.

Also, random lights in different parts of the room are not going to effect detection. The way you described it made me laugh so hard. The bright lighting has more to do with the noise of the detector. I'm sure it's a very high SNR detector, and that's why it's a low megapixel rating. There's a reason why you can get a point-and-shoot camera with a 16MP rating, yet it is difficult to find a professional camera with more than a 10MP rating. As the light detected by the detector goes up, the blips of noise become large hunks of noise. The problem with your lamp idea is that the lens will focus all of that light to a small portion of the detector and have a little effect on the noise of the rest of the image. It's when you flood the entire room with light that you will have an issue.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and clarifying your BS. Now please stop talking out of your ass. Also don't tell someone that they're wrong when you obviously have no freaking clue yourself.

They have stated that Kinect works in the dark and low light thus it does not track you with the RGB cam.  (Your brain can easily see depth with just one eye so it is possible to detect depth with RGB range.) It's just more simple if you track with only one color ... thus IR light.  Notice the RGB cam is right beside the IR cam; as close as possible so the images are same. RGB cam is to put your image (other images) on screen while IR cam does the tracking.

 This still doesn't show Kinect sees  3D no more that a RGB cam. Thus it misleading to claim Kinect sees 3D as there is difference between detecting depth (one eye)  which Move and TrackIR does with a different method and seeing 3D (two eyes).


This is simply wrong.

It's not tracking "colour" at all.  It's tracking DEPTH.  It's working more like sonar, the Kinect IR transmitter is bathing the room with IR light,  that light is bouncing back to the depth sensor.  The closer something is to the camera, the brigher it appears.  Look at the IR image again, as stuff moves away from the camera it gets darker.  It's clearly evident that the brightest thing in the image is the pillow or whatever on the bottom right and the darkest thing is the far wall.

If you were to light the scene with a bright light on the wall behind the people, an RGB camera would see them as darker than the background and according to you it would think the wall was closer than they are.  The IR camera would still see the scene with the correct depth as it's not seeing visible light at all, it's ignoring all those wavelengths.

The ability to read the depth of the scene is what allows it generate a 3D map of the scene.


Like I said, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. That yellow image is a computer generated image of the distance to each object. The IR emitter is more like a projector that emits patterns. The patterns get reflected off of each object differently and get detected by the camera. The chip then performs a mathematical analysis on the resulting distorted pattern to determine distances to different points in the room.

It's clearly evident from the color scale of the computer generated image, that the chip can properly decode the pattern and produce accurate results of the distances to each object.

It's not like sonar because sonar uses time-of-flight. Time of flight for light requires very expensive hardware and could not use a standard webcam. It is this technology which conquers a huge mathematical challenge, and does so in a very short amount of time with inexpensive hardware that made the Kinect feasable.

I didn't say it was exactly like sonar, only that it was a similar principle.  Sonar is measuring the time it takes to hear a reflection and Kinect is using the amount of light it receives back from a reflection.  In both cases is using reflection to measure distance, simply one is audio/time based and the other is light/luminosity based.



bobbert on 24 October 2010
daroamer said:

I didn't say it was exactly like sonar, only that it was a similar principle.  Sonar is measuring the time it takes to hear a reflection and Kinect is using the amount of light it receives back from a reflection.  In both cases is using reflection to measure distance, simply one is audio/time based and the other is light/luminosity based.


No, it is not using the amount of light it gets in return. It is using the distortion of a pattern. That's what you still don't understand so I don't know why I bother to keep explaining it to you.

For example, the IR emitter may send a grid, and the camera may see this:



daroamer on 25 October 2010
bobbert said:
daroamer said:
bobbert said:
daroamer said:
Smidlee said:
bobbert said:
Smidlee said:
bobbert said:
Smidlee said:

Well for one thing , kinect doesn't see things in 3-D no more than another other web cam. The claim Kinect "sees" in 3D is a little misleading as most people think 3D as like how they see. Kinect cam sees a completely flat image.  There are ways to try tracking something 3d on a flat image . For example Move uses the size of the ball on the image to determine where the move controller is in Z-axis. The more pixels the ball image uses the closer the ball is relative to the camera.  Kinect tracking the Z axis how the strength of IR light bouncing off an object.

 I can think of two major disadvantages of Kinect tracking you sitting vs standing up.

 1)  You are closer to surrounding objects including what you can sitting on. (standing puts distance between you and other objects)  While our brain can do this with ease even with one eye close yet it's a lot tougher for and  computer to do this.

 2) Your images itself takes up less pixels on the camera which means  Kinect is recieving  less information.

So while Kinect may work sitting down I doubt it will be able to track as well as standing up. This is good reason Microsoft wanted developers to develop games at least at launch standing up.


really? so any camera can see 3D as well as kinect's RGB camera near-IR emitter & IR sensor? Both cameras are working at all times. You might want to actually look at the kinect compenent list before acting like you know how that Z-axis tracking works. Your hypotheses might be more believable

I watch the video of how Kinect works and they make it clear this is  how it works. The problem with using RGB camera when it comes to depth  is most homes has multiply light sources makes is extremely difficult to track Z axis. Our brain can do this with ease with just one eye even though you don't see  true 3D with one eye. The brain uses lines, lighting, shapes, etc.  Even super computers have trouble take two images and make a true 3D image with any kind of speed  like our brain does.

 Kinect software is the tough part as it takes all those pixels and guesses the position of the player's body.


You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. All of the videos are very generic descriptions, and I have seen some that are so WAAAAAAAY off of what is happening that it's funny.

First, we have the primesensor-like unit:

And unless you know how to do fourier transforms, I can't even begin to describe to you how it works for detecting 3D. Also, more details about the chip:

Notice the optional RGB, that is because it is using a standard RGB camera like a standard webcam. Instead of just using depth, MS is using the RGB camera to get depth and color, taking advantage of that optional output. From what I read, there is discrepancy on whether they use IR light or light that is considered not IR, but outside the visible spectrum of 99.999% of humans.

Now, does that seem like your normal webcam? Well wait, there's more. There's a camera that detects IR, with a filter blocks out visible light (probably including the near-IR light emitted from the primesense setup). This is to determine whether the object in front of you is human or not, where different body parts are, etc.

Also, random lights in different parts of the room are not going to effect detection. The way you described it made me laugh so hard. The bright lighting has more to do with the noise of the detector. I'm sure it's a very high SNR detector, and that's why it's a low megapixel rating. There's a reason why you can get a point-and-shoot camera with a 16MP rating, yet it is difficult to find a professional camera with more than a 10MP rating. As the light detected by the detector goes up, the blips of noise become large hunks of noise. The problem with your lamp idea is that the lens will focus all of that light to a small portion of the detector and have a little effect on the noise of the rest of the image. It's when you flood the entire room with light that you will have an issue.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and clarifying your BS. Now please stop talking out of your ass. Also don't tell someone that they're wrong when you obviously have no freaking clue yourself.

They have stated that Kinect works in the dark and low light thus it does not track you with the RGB cam.  (Your brain can easily see depth with just one eye so it is possible to detect depth with RGB range.) It's just more simple if you track with only one color ... thus IR light.  Notice the RGB cam is right beside the IR cam; as close as possible so the images are same. RGB cam is to put your image (other images) on screen while IR cam does the tracking.

 This still doesn't show Kinect sees  3D no more that a RGB cam. Thus it misleading to claim Kinect sees 3D as there is difference between detecting depth (one eye)  which Move and TrackIR does with a different method and seeing 3D (two eyes).


This is simply wrong.

It's not tracking "colour" at all.  It's tracking DEPTH.  It's working more like sonar, the Kinect IR transmitter is bathing the room with IR light,  that light is bouncing back to the depth sensor.  The closer something is to the camera, the brigher it appears.  Look at the IR image again, as stuff moves away from the camera it gets darker.  It's clearly evident that the brightest thing in the image is the pillow or whatever on the bottom right and the darkest thing is the far wall.

If you were to light the scene with a bright light on the wall behind the people, an RGB camera would see them as darker than the background and according to you it would think the wall was closer than they are.  The IR camera would still see the scene with the correct depth as it's not seeing visible light at all, it's ignoring all those wavelengths.

The ability to read the depth of the scene is what allows it generate a 3D map of the scene.


Like I said, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. That yellow image is a computer generated image of the distance to each object. The IR emitter is more like a projector that emits patterns. The patterns get reflected off of each object differently and get detected by the camera. The chip then performs a mathematical analysis on the resulting distorted pattern to determine distances to different points in the room.

It's clearly evident from the color scale of the computer generated image, that the chip can properly decode the pattern and produce accurate results of the distances to each object.

It's not like sonar because sonar uses time-of-flight. Time of flight for light requires very expensive hardware and could not use a standard webcam. It is this technology which conquers a huge mathematical challenge, and does so in a very short amount of time with inexpensive hardware that made the Kinect feasable.

I didn't say it was exactly like sonar, only that it was a similar principle.  Sonar is measuring the time it takes to hear a reflection and Kinect is using the amount of light it receives back from a reflection.  In both cases is using reflection to measure distance, simply one is audio/time based and the other is light/luminosity based.


No, it is not using the amount of light it gets in return. It is using the distortion of a pattern. That's what you still don't understand so I don't know why I bother to keep explaining it to you.

For example, the IR emitter may send a grid, and the camera may see this:


I think you're confusing me with the other guy.



slowmo on 25 October 2010
geddesmond2 said:
slowmo said:
geddesmond2 said:
slowmo said:
geddesmond2 said:

I put my bias aside and looked at kinect from a consumer standpoint. As in I looked at kinect from a standpoint of a consumer(someone interested in buying it) and not somebody just knocking it because its a MS product. Do you understand know?

Secondly. Again I did not say I was putting my bias aside for this post. I said I put my bias aside to look at kinect to see if it would interest me. Thats just you twisting words. If I was shit stirring it would be very far fetched. I'm just stating things thats going on and why I think its happened.

Thirdly. Oh please do educate me about it.

Fourthly my point is your saying MS has exclusives and I'm say thats true but the next exclusive is Fall 2011 and the others could be years away because there unannounced or are still in early developments. You say your happy with the way MS is conducting buisness. I'm saying if that was Sony I'd be pissed. I don't have the patience to wait a year for another exclusive game. I'm a gamer mate. Knowing what games are coming is what keeps me gaming

And lastly I'm not getting emotional but it annoys me when people take what you say way out of context or twist your words to make themselfs look better which is what you've been doing


I've answered your other points twice I don't see much point in discussing them further.  Businesses have marketing budgets to be used.  Not all marketing money will be out of the Microsoft coffers.  I doubt the figure of 500 million is 10 fold their usual budget for a year especially when you consider how much they've spent on superbowl advertisements and branding none gaming items for sale in the past.

As for the bolded, there is at least two people in here that took your words and understood the meaning to be different to what you claim you intended.  In my opinion that makes you as the writer to blame not the reader.  I don't see what else there is to discuss as my opinion hasn't changed really and obviously yours neither. 

Well its funny how Shadowblind who was the first person to reply to the message knew exactly what I was saying. If I meant something differant like what yous said I meant then I'd be having this conversation with Shadowblind and not yous.


No he didn't "know exactly what" you was saying, it seems you have reading comprehension issues as well as writing problems.  Try reading his post again.  Saying you having a opinion of your own is fine does not translate to what you wrote being remotely balanced or unbiased.  Keep digging, I've given you the easy way out but you want to keep shooting yourself in the foot.

Ah I couldn't give a shit what you think. Have fun playing kinect thats all I can say LMAO. At least I know what kind of gamer you are. Oh and by the way., Kinectimals is so good, such a manly game, pet tigers for the win and Milo, greatest game ever. I can't wait for that game to come out I'll finally have a real friend to play with LMAO. Now thats talking from a bias standpoint. Mybe you'll understand a bit better now.


The prosecution rests, please never ever talk to me again, I don't want my IQ lowering.



Around the Network
welshbloke on 25 October 2010

Would it be possible before we continue in this interesting in depth analysis of the functions and functionality of Kinect that somebody first introduces you all to the edit function so we do not need to have 2 foot of text between each post.

 

W.L.B.B. Member, Portsmouth Branch.

(Welsh(Folk) Living Beyond Borders)

Winner of the 2010 VGC Holiday sales prediction thread with an Average 1.6% accuracy rating. I am indeed awesome.

Kinect as seen by PS3 owners ...if you can pick at it   ...post it ... Did I mention the 360 was black and Shinny? Keeping Sigs obscure since 2007, Passed by the Sig police 5July10.
slowmo on 25 October 2010
welshbloke said:

Would it be possible before we continue in this interesting in depth analysis of the functions and functionality of Kinect that somebody first introduces you all to the edit function so we do not need to have 2 foot of text between each post.

 


1, best post of the thread so far



geddesmond2 on 25 October 2010
slowmo said:
geddesmond2 said:
slowmo said:
geddesmond2 said:
slowmo said:
geddesmond2 said:

I put my bias aside and looked at kinect from a consumer standpoint. As in I looked at kinect from a standpoint of a consumer(someone interested in buying it) and not somebody just knocking it because its a MS product. Do you understand know?

Secondly. Again I did not say I was putting my bias aside for this post. I said I put my bias aside to look at kinect to see if it would interest me. Thats just you twisting words. If I was shit stirring it would be very far fetched. I'm just stating things thats going on and why I think its happened.

Thirdly. Oh please do educate me about it.

Fourthly my point is your saying MS has exclusives and I'm say thats true but the next exclusive is Fall 2011 and the others could be years away because there unannounced or are still in early developments. You say your happy with the way MS is conducting buisness. I'm saying if that was Sony I'd be pissed. I don't have the patience to wait a year for another exclusive game. I'm a gamer mate. Knowing what games are coming is what keeps me gaming

And lastly I'm not getting emotional but it annoys me when people take what you say way out of context or twist your words to make themselfs look better which is what you've been doing


I've answered your other points twice I don't see much point in discussing them further.  Businesses have marketing budgets to be used.  Not all marketing money will be out of the Microsoft coffers.  I doubt the figure of 500 million is 10 fold their usual budget for a year especially when you consider how much they've spent on superbowl advertisements and branding none gaming items for sale in the past.

As for the bolded, there is at least two people in here that took your words and understood the meaning to be different to what you claim you intended.  In my opinion that makes you as the writer to blame not the reader.  I don't see what else there is to discuss as my opinion hasn't changed really and obviously yours neither. 

Well its funny how Shadowblind who was the first person to reply to the message knew exactly what I was saying. If I meant something differant like what yous said I meant then I'd be having this conversation with Shadowblind and not yous.


No he didn't "know exactly what" you was saying, it seems you have reading comprehension issues as well as writing problems.  Try reading his post again.  Saying you having a opinion of your own is fine does not translate to what you wrote being remotely balanced or unbiased.  Keep digging, I've given you the easy way out but you want to keep shooting yourself in the foot.

Ah I couldn't give a shit what you think. Have fun playing kinect thats all I can say LMAO. At least I know what kind of gamer you are. Oh and by the way., Kinectimals is so good, such a manly game, pet tigers for the win and Milo, greatest game ever. I can't wait for that game to come out I'll finally have a real friend to play with LMAO. Now thats talking from a bias standpoint. Mybe you'll understand a bit better now.


The prosecution rests, please never ever talk to me again, I don't want my IQ lowering.


LMAO is it even possible for your IQ to get any lower. Anyway I'll gladly never talk to you again. Its not like your anyone of importance ROFL.



ryuzaki57 on 25 October 2010

This not surprising coming from Microsoft... those guys can't achieve anything without cheating.



 

Blog -> https://ryuz4ki57inenglish.wordpress.com/

Shadowblind on 25 October 2010
ryuzaki57 said:

This not surprising coming from Microsoft... those guys can't achieve anything without cheating.


Welcome to VGChartz. How've you enjoyed it so far?



GOTY Contestants this year: Dead Space 2, Dark Souls, Tales of Graces f. Everything else can suck it.