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Forums - PC - Dear Blizzard, please fix Starcraft II

Hephaestos said:


so basically to not get dropshiped rush, just change your whole early build strat, then what do I do then when the void rays arrive and I don't have my mutas or hydras?... I'm in no way as experienced as you it seems, so it's true you probably know more about balance than I do, but you play as a team... i'm stuck with random players that pratically never help when you're attacked.

oh and I barely played SC1 multi... for W3 i prefered flavor games, so yeah you can call me average joe as far as online RTS goes.

Anyways, I would guess that the leagues are in a pyramidal shape so there's little diamonds and oh so many bronze ones. You can't expect the majority of the people to be happy if the game is balanced perfectly only for the diamond guys... 90% of my games are won or lost because some other player died with no defence on either team. (oh and the matchups are sometimes way too ridiculous, in my early bronze games, I was teamed with plat players that got raped... I was happy when the 3 opposing armies arrived on my poorly build base.).

You seem to be asking for a strategy / build that can stop any potential attacks (from 4 different players). Unfortunately, that just isn't possible in SC2. Well, you can try picking Protoss and massing Stalkers, that's about as good as it'll get (only real weakness being stim Marauders)

Still, if you're going to play random teams, you just need to learn to love the chaos, and how to treat / use other teammates. It can be fun. If that's not your thing, there's always the smaller, more controlled brackets.


As for leagues, it isn't too bad - Platinum is about the top 20%. I'll agree with you when you say it should be balanced for all skill levels, however, the vast majority of people below Platinum (or maybe Gold, top 40%) I suspect are one of two things - they haven't played the game much, or they simply don't know the game well enough. They fail to understand which units counter what, basic strategy (chokes / concaves, economy), and other key knowledge that keeps them from winning.

The point is this - if you take 100 diamond players and ask them what's overpowered, or what the problems are with the game, they'll generally agree on the same few things (like, "Marauder OP"). Take 100 Bronze players and it'll be all over the place - from cloaked units, to speedlings, to rushes, void rays, and who knows what else. You can't really balance by listening to someone from the latter group (unless there's something they actually all agree on)



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Hephaestos said:
c0rd said:
Hephaestos said:

barracks -> factory -> starport

pretty fast to get running

to counter it you need either:

 

Warpgate -> Forge -> cibernetix/photon tower

or

Spawningpool -> Hive -> hydralisk den

For zerg it's more like, 

Spawning pool -> Baneling's nest. Slaughters the marines, speedlings clean up.


No offense, but if you're new to the game or haven't yet learned how to play reasonably well (not asking for pro level here, but at least platinum), you shouldn't really be criticizing the balance of the game. Seems like what I'm seeing all over this thread.


As for 3's / 4's, yeah, if by "rushes" you mean early timed pushes, it's definitely powerful. I taught my (~gold level) friends build orders for each race for nasty ~6min timed pushes (4min real time). Once we got the hang of it, all playing random, we've crushed nearly every opponent we've come across, players who are far better individually than we are (though I'm high diamond).

But then, was Starcraft 1 any different? Can't say I've seen too many 3v3 / 4v4's, so I dunno


so basically to not get dropshiped rush, just change your whole early build strat, then what do I do then when the void rays arrive and I don't have my mutas or hydras?... I'm in no way as experienced as you it seems, so it's true you probably know more about balance than I do, but you play as a team... i'm stuck with random players that pratically never help when you're attacked.

oh and I barely played SC1 multi... for W3 i prefered flavor games, so yeah you can call me average joe as far as online RTS goes.

Anyways, I would guess that the leagues are in a pyramidal shape so there's little diamonds and oh so many bronze ones. You can't expect the majority of the people to be happy if the game is balanced perfectly only for the diamond guys... 90% of my games are won or lost because some other player died with no defence on either team. (oh and the matchups are sometimes way too ridiculous, in my early bronze games, I was teamed with plat players that got raped... I was happy when the 3 opposing armies arrived on my poorly build base.).

Competitive games must, and always will be, balanced for top-tier play. At the low levels, balance or imbalance problems are not what hold the players back, it's personal skill. Instead of hoping for some kind of patch to make everything easier, try working with what you have.

If you're having trouble with the basics, work on them. Make a mental checklist with questions like:

1. Do I have enough workers? (enough being 20-30 per base including gas miners)

2. Am I scouting?

3. *race dependant* Zerg- Am I spawning larva and creep tumors? Terran - Am I using MULEs on time and keeping up with supply depots? Protoss - Probes and pylons!?! =P

4. Am I scouting?

5. Am I upgrading and teching up at the right times?

6. Am I scouting?

7. Am I spending my resources? (Hoarding is bad mostly)

8. Am I scouting?

Start with that. Please note, this is mostly all macro orientated (scouting is kind of its own thing), and while micro is important (especially for Zerg), macro is more important.

You've been playing Zerg? Zerg is the hardest race. The macro goes against common sense, and the micro is HEAVY. Bad Terran players (plat and below mostly) can get away with attack-move with moderate success. As Zerg, you have to learn what it means to run past units and surround. You can't just attack move, you will lose. I play random, but Zerg is my main and my best, so if you have any specific questions, feel free to ask.

If you're having trouble with air, that's what scouting is for. And remember, you have 2 great tier 1 options for AA, queens and spores. Though spores are less than ideal vs. Protoss, it's perfect against Terran. Against Protoss, I either tech to hydras (since hydras RAPE Protoss, mutas not so much) or I make a few extra queens. 3-4 Queens can just destroy a pack of voids, with good micro of course.



r505Matt said:
Hephaestos said:
c0rd said:
Hephaestos said:

barracks -> factory -> starport

pretty fast to get running

to counter it you need either:

 

Warpgate -> Forge -> cibernetix/photon tower

or

Spawningpool -> Hive -> hydralisk den

For zerg it's more like, 

Spawning pool -> Baneling's nest. Slaughters the marines, speedlings clean up.


No offense, but if you're new to the game or haven't yet learned how to play reasonably well (not asking for pro level here, but at least platinum), you shouldn't really be criticizing the balance of the game. Seems like what I'm seeing all over this thread.


As for 3's / 4's, yeah, if by "rushes" you mean early timed pushes, it's definitely powerful. I taught my (~gold level) friends build orders for each race for nasty ~6min timed pushes (4min real time). Once we got the hang of it, all playing random, we've crushed nearly every opponent we've come across, players who are far better individually than we are (though I'm high diamond).

But then, was Starcraft 1 any different? Can't say I've seen too many 3v3 / 4v4's, so I dunno


so basically to not get dropshiped rush, just change your whole early build strat, then what do I do then when the void rays arrive and I don't have my mutas or hydras?... I'm in no way as experienced as you it seems, so it's true you probably know more about balance than I do, but you play as a team... i'm stuck with random players that pratically never help when you're attacked.

oh and I barely played SC1 multi... for W3 i prefered flavor games, so yeah you can call me average joe as far as online RTS goes.

Anyways, I would guess that the leagues are in a pyramidal shape so there's little diamonds and oh so many bronze ones. You can't expect the majority of the people to be happy if the game is balanced perfectly only for the diamond guys... 90% of my games are won or lost because some other player died with no defence on either team. (oh and the matchups are sometimes way too ridiculous, in my early bronze games, I was teamed with plat players that got raped... I was happy when the 3 opposing armies arrived on my poorly build base.).

Competitive games must, and always will be, balanced for top-tier play. At the low levels, balance or imbalance problems are not what hold the players back, it's personal skill. Instead of hoping for some kind of patch to make everything easier, try working with what you have.

If you're having trouble with the basics, work on them. Make a mental checklist with questions like:

1. Do I have enough workers? (enough being 20-30 per base including gas miners)

2. Am I scouting?

3. *race dependant* Zerg- Am I spawning larva and creep tumors? Terran - Am I using MULEs on time and keeping up with supply depots? Protoss - Probes and pylons!?! =P

4. Am I scouting?

5. Am I upgrading and teching up at the right times?

6. Am I scouting?

7. Am I spending my resources? (Hoarding is bad mostly)

8. Am I scouting?

Start with that. Please note, this is mostly all macro orientated (scouting is kind of its own thing), and while micro is important (especially for Zerg), macro is more important.

You've been playing Zerg? Zerg is the hardest race. The macro goes against common sense, and the micro is HEAVY. Bad Terran players (plat and below mostly) can get away with attack-move with moderate success. As Zerg, you have to learn what it means to run past units and surround. You can't just attack move, you will lose. I play random, but Zerg is my main and my best, so if you have any specific questions, feel free to ask.

If you're having trouble with air, that's what scouting is for. And remember, you have 2 great tier 1 options for AA, queens and spores. Though spores are less than ideal vs. Protoss, it's perfect against Terran. Against Protoss, I either tech to hydras (since hydras RAPE Protoss, mutas not so much) or I make a few extra queens. 3-4 Queens can just destroy a pack of voids, with good micro of course.


yeah I guess i'm deficient on the macro... that's probably a flaw from having played mostly SP RTS... ennemies come in waves, not as a tsunami :op

I'll make efforts on scouting (and think of my queens a bit more as a unit).

thanks for the tips (and nice Id avatar :p)



OoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO

c0rd said:
Hephaestos said:


so basically to not get dropshiped rush, just change your whole early build strat, then what do I do then when the void rays arrive and I don't have my mutas or hydras?... I'm in no way as experienced as you it seems, so it's true you probably know more about balance than I do, but you play as a team... i'm stuck with random players that pratically never help when you're attacked.

oh and I barely played SC1 multi... for W3 i prefered flavor games, so yeah you can call me average joe as far as online RTS goes.

Anyways, I would guess that the leagues are in a pyramidal shape so there's little diamonds and oh so many bronze ones. You can't expect the majority of the people to be happy if the game is balanced perfectly only for the diamond guys... 90% of my games are won or lost because some other player died with no defence on either team. (oh and the matchups are sometimes way too ridiculous, in my early bronze games, I was teamed with plat players that got raped... I was happy when the 3 opposing armies arrived on my poorly build base.).

You seem to be asking for a strategy / build that can stop any potential attacks (from 4 different players). Unfortunately, that just isn't possible in SC2. Well, you can try picking Protoss and massing Stalkers, that's about as good as it'll get (only real weakness being stim Marauders)

Still, if you're going to play random teams, you just need to learn to love the chaos, and how to treat / use other teammates. It can be fun. If that's not your thing, there's always the smaller, more controlled brackets.


As for leagues, it isn't too bad - Platinum is about the top 20%. I'll agree with you when you say it should be balanced for all skill levels, however, the vast majority of people below Platinum (or maybe Gold, top 40%) I suspect are one of two things - they haven't played the game much, or they simply don't know the game well enough. They fail to understand which units counter what, basic strategy (chokes / concaves, economy), and other key knowledge that keeps them from winning.

The point is this - if you take 100 diamond players and ask them what's overpowered, or what the problems are with the game, they'll generally agree on the same few things (like, "Marauder OP"). Take 100 Bronze players and it'll be all over the place - from cloaked units, to speedlings, to rushes, void rays, and who knows what else. You can't really balance by listening to someone from the latter group (unless there's something they actually all agree on)


well at least all the higher ranked players here seem to be in agreement... so i'll work on the few points you guys made before bitching again =)

oh and I started all my leagues bronze... which is normal. i'm high silver now... I just don't play often enough to rize faster.



OoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO

Hephaestos said:


yeah I guess i'm deficient on the macro... that's probably a flaw from having played mostly SP RTS... ennemies come in waves, not as a tsunami :op

I'll make efforts on scouting (and think of my queens a bit more as a unit).

thanks for the tips (and nice Id avatar :p)


YOU KNOW ID? Haha, I've been trying to get the manga fans on this site to read it (yes I know it's a Manwha) but they won't listen to me =P

Something I'm noticing in the meta-game is that people are sending earlier and earlier scouts. It's weird how in strategy videos someone might say "If you expect cheese, send an early scout" but I just watched a pro game from Zotac of a Marauder proxy rax rush. The Protoss had a late gateway (13) and I just think he could've survived and maybe won had he scouted earlier (the Protoss lost obviously). I know the next patch is essentially removing proxy rax play, but I think it will soon be the norm to send a scout right at the start. Preparing for the rushes is easy, so long as you know they're coming.