By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - Is wealth in fewer hands better than "spreading the wealth around"?

richardhutnik said:
theman88 said:

It is called the trickle down theory. Even though the rich are rich, they spend all of that money in places that give other people jobs such as stocks, retail, car sales, etc. And the thing that everyone seems to forgot is that these rich peole get charged taxes on everything they spend money on. Spread the wealth rewards those that work and suck off the system.  And by taxing the rich more, they will not spend the same. the reason taxes are done by percentages is because it equalizes the system   30 percent of a 10 million dollar income is 3 million dollars to the government.  It all works out it just happens to be that this economy sucks right now.

If you read Aftershock, you will see the argument laid out that the rich don't spend money in sufficient amounts to stimulate the economy.  The money builds on itself, and keeps earning more money, as they invited in plants in China, that create jobs there.

Of course... Aftershock could just be wrong.

Trickledown economics does actually get a bit of a bad name.

The Trickledown policies actually were working if you look at the numbers, what screwed up the economy durings Reagan's time was the runaway government spending that was used to fight the cold war.



Around the Network
richardhutnik said:
raptors11 said:
richardhutnik said:
raptors11 said:
 

I have a Masters degree in Information Systems, a BS degree in Management, and years of experience.  My verbal comprehension and communication IQ tested around 140 (near top 1%).  The only work I shouldn't be able to do now is manual labor with heavy lifting (lost a part-time janitor spot due to the condition), which begs why I would fit into that with my background.  I should be suitable to do mental work where I can work on my back.  The irony is that my effectiveness now to find employment is on par with when I was looking much heavier because I could do anything.  The gotcha here is the principle of private property and giving being voluntary.  Either it should be and the chips fall where they may, or government steps in.

In all this, I am still trying to work here. I get no compensation except family handouts and from church.  So, I am trying to get something going.  Looking into helping others find work, or at least meaningful volunteer work that then could lead to employment (see the GodIsHiring link below to the facebook group).

On a related not here, the word "slothfulness", which is connected to laziness, has a connection to depression.  It involves an abandonment of hope.  I would say the bulk of lazy people have generally been robed of hope and have no basis for motivation to do anything (motive or reason to do is at the heart of motivation).  Circumstances in life can totally rob someone of reasons to be and do.  I have seen this battling things myself, where repeatedly not getting anywhere can cause one to even give up the will to live.

Dude if that's all true how in the hell do you not work in a corner office for a big corporation by now? A masters degree and all the work you've had is as a janitor? I don't mean to sound rude but you must be doing something wrong.

I had one of those jobs with IBM until 2004 (with them nearly 7 years).  If you may of noticed, they are on a mission to eliminate as much American workers as possible, to maximize profits.  End result is less jobs, and IBM being one of the few IT employers in the Hudson Valley area.  Not much in the way to get additional training or certification either in this area.  In short, the IT industry started the 2008 trend right after 9/11.   This area has shown gross incompetence to create jobs.  From 2004-2007, I did two helpdesk jobs as a contractor with IBM.  The last one ended February 2007, with the helpdesk eventually consolidating with Colorado, and the helpdesk manager here killing himself after getting downsized.  I had seen state jobs in Albany also dry up to.  Throw in Masters level education in IT not worth much either (in co.mparison to a BS degree)

Welcome to the new economy.  So what would be the explanation of a person with director level IT experience pumping gas out in Vegas to pay the bills?

If I am to blame, it is for lack of knowing what to do to prevent problems, and act proactively, and thus not doing it.

Yeah that sucks dude, there's nothing we can do about jobs going to Mexico or China.



Kasz216 said:
whatever said:
Kasz216 said:

There were other factors involved.  However that very much WAS a factor.  A major one.

The US actually spends more money per capita then most countries when it comes to "spreading the wealth".

This is something most people don't realize.

The derivitives market itself was an extension of this... as is allowed home ownership to skyrocket to levels it shouldn't of skyrocketed too.

Said market wasn't made "because greed was good".  Said market was made because people wanted to "Spread the wealth of houses".

Because owning your own home is the cornerstone of the "American Dream."

Your way off base here.  You seem to be repeating the conservative mantra that it was Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac via the Communities Reinvestment Act that caused the crisis.  This has been thoroughly debunked by many sources.  Its just a way of blaming poor people for the problems created by the wealthy.  It's morally reprehensible.

The derivatives market is much bigger than anything mortgage related.  By many accounts, it is in the quadrillions.  The mortgage crisis was just the trigger that started the implosion.  It was inevitable that this implosion was going to occur, it was just a matter of when.

I'm not the one who's off base.  Again, the countries who are more conservative fiscally are fine, only liberally economic countries were hurt.  Why do you think that was?

Why do you think deritivitives only hurt fiscally liberal countries?

Derivitives are used to push off risk, that companies take, often at the behest of governments... and also often at their own wishes.

Why do these exist?  Because people are convinced to do so.  People are convinced to spend beyond their means... espiecally in fiscally liberal countries.


The problem didn't happen because of banks.  The problem happened because too many people got loans in general that couldn't pay for them.  Too many people were living beyond their means and too many people and coutnries had negative savings rates.  Throw in massive government spending and you've got a huge inflation of value with no real value to back it up.

Everytime someone takes out credit it creates "fake" value... when enough defaults happen, either by us, the government or both... bad things happen as everything shrinks back to were the value should naturally be.

Anyone who blames it on the banks just wants to avoid the real problem.  Government and decades of people being taught poor financial discipline.


Even the government has realized this.
  Well the poor financial discipline part anyway.  If your wondering why credit and loans are so hard to get now even with the bailout... the reason is, the fed greatly increased the benefits of having high cash on hand in banks.  The government basically made it more profitable for banks to sit on their money then to lend it out unless they're stone cold solid that they're getting that money back.

Sorry, but you don't seem to understand what happened in the derivatives markets at all.  The real problem was that it was completely unregulated.  Derivatives were originally created to push off risk, but they became much more than that.  They started to be used in ways that they were not intended.  They could be used to bet that a company would fail.  They could be bought without owning the underlying asset.  It became a casino.  All the companies that bought and sold these became interlinked.  AIG couldn't be allowed to fail because they would have brought a lot of others down with them.

Obviously there is not enough time or space here to go into all of this.  There is plenty of info out there on it.  Try:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/

Again, your falling back on the lie that it was "too many people got loans in general that couldn't pay for them".  Did this happen?  Yes.  Was it a bad thing?  Yes.  But it pales in comparison with the "bets" made by these investment bankers.  To say it had nothing to do with the banks is to competely disregard reality.  The deregulation that started with Reagan allowed investment banks to merge with commercial banks. This led to much freer lending as the assets could be sold off by the investment branch.

 



I believe we should all be filthy rich.

Can anyone tell me any problem with this?



Hmm that last comment of mine didn't sound too enlightened for a Buddha...

We should have no money and all be rich in spirit.



Around the Network
whatever said:
Kasz216 said:
whatever said:
Kasz216 said:

There were other factors involved.  However that very much WAS a factor.  A major one.

The US actually spends more money per capita then most countries when it comes to "spreading the wealth".

This is something most people don't realize.

The derivitives market itself was an extension of this... as is allowed home ownership to skyrocket to levels it shouldn't of skyrocketed too.

Said market wasn't made "because greed was good".  Said market was made because people wanted to "Spread the wealth of houses".

Because owning your own home is the cornerstone of the "American Dream."

Your way off base here.  You seem to be repeating the conservative mantra that it was Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac via the Communities Reinvestment Act that caused the crisis.  This has been thoroughly debunked by many sources.  Its just a way of blaming poor people for the problems created by the wealthy.  It's morally reprehensible.

The derivatives market is much bigger than anything mortgage related.  By many accounts, it is in the quadrillions.  The mortgage crisis was just the trigger that started the implosion.  It was inevitable that this implosion was going to occur, it was just a matter of when.

I'm not the one who's off base.  Again, the countries who are more conservative fiscally are fine, only liberally economic countries were hurt.  Why do you think that was?

Why do you think deritivitives only hurt fiscally liberal countries?

Derivitives are used to push off risk, that companies take, often at the behest of governments... and also often at their own wishes.

Why do these exist?  Because people are convinced to do so.  People are convinced to spend beyond their means... espiecally in fiscally liberal countries.


The problem didn't happen because of banks.  The problem happened because too many people got loans in general that couldn't pay for them.  Too many people were living beyond their means and too many people and coutnries had negative savings rates.  Throw in massive government spending and you've got a huge inflation of value with no real value to back it up.

Everytime someone takes out credit it creates "fake" value... when enough defaults happen, either by us, the government or both... bad things happen as everything shrinks back to were the value should naturally be.

Anyone who blames it on the banks just wants to avoid the real problem.  Government and decades of people being taught poor financial discipline.


Even the government has realized this.
  Well the poor financial discipline part anyway.  If your wondering why credit and loans are so hard to get now even with the bailout... the reason is, the fed greatly increased the benefits of having high cash on hand in banks.  The government basically made it more profitable for banks to sit on their money then to lend it out unless they're stone cold solid that they're getting that money back.

Sorry, but you don't seem to understand what happened in the derivatives markets at all.  The real problem was that it was completely unregulated.  Derivatives were originally created to push off risk, but they became much more than that.  They started to be used in ways that they were not intended.  They could be used to bet that a company would fail.  They could be bought without owning the underlying asset.  It became a casino.  All the companies that bought and sold these became interlinked.  AIG couldn't be allowed to fail because they would have brought a lot of others down with them.

Obviously there is not enough time or space here to go into all of this.  There is plenty of info out there on it.  Try:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/

Again, your falling back on the lie that it was "too many people got loans in general that couldn't pay for them".  Did this happen?  Yes.  Was it a bad thing?  Yes.  But it pales in comparison with the "bets" made by these investment bankers.  To say it had nothing to do with the banks is to competely disregard reality.  The deregulation that started with Reagan allowed investment banks to merge with commercial banks. This led to much freer lending as the assets could be sold off by the investment branch.


Er... your still not getting it.  Do you know the value of the deritivitives market?  Do you know what a derivitive is?  Do you know how one is created?

More importantly... do you know why they exist in the first place?



Kasz216 said:
whatever said:
Kasz216 said:
whatever said:
Kasz216 said:

There were other factors involved.  However that very much WAS a factor.  A major one.

The US actually spends more money per capita then most countries when it comes to "spreading the wealth".

This is something most people don't realize.

The derivitives market itself was an extension of this... as is allowed home ownership to skyrocket to levels it shouldn't of skyrocketed too.

Said market wasn't made "because greed was good".  Said market was made because people wanted to "Spread the wealth of houses".

Because owning your own home is the cornerstone of the "American Dream."

Your way off base here.  You seem to be repeating the conservative mantra that it was Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac via the Communities Reinvestment Act that caused the crisis.  This has been thoroughly debunked by many sources.  Its just a way of blaming poor people for the problems created by the wealthy.  It's morally reprehensible.

The derivatives market is much bigger than anything mortgage related.  By many accounts, it is in the quadrillions.  The mortgage crisis was just the trigger that started the implosion.  It was inevitable that this implosion was going to occur, it was just a matter of when.

I'm not the one who's off base.  Again, the countries who are more conservative fiscally are fine, only liberally economic countries were hurt.  Why do you think that was?

Why do you think deritivitives only hurt fiscally liberal countries?

Derivitives are used to push off risk, that companies take, often at the behest of governments... and also often at their own wishes.

Why do these exist?  Because people are convinced to do so.  People are convinced to spend beyond their means... espiecally in fiscally liberal countries.


The problem didn't happen because of banks.  The problem happened because too many people got loans in general that couldn't pay for them.  Too many people were living beyond their means and too many people and coutnries had negative savings rates.  Throw in massive government spending and you've got a huge inflation of value with no real value to back it up.

Everytime someone takes out credit it creates "fake" value... when enough defaults happen, either by us, the government or both... bad things happen as everything shrinks back to were the value should naturally be.

Anyone who blames it on the banks just wants to avoid the real problem.  Government and decades of people being taught poor financial discipline.


Even the government has realized this.
  Well the poor financial discipline part anyway.  If your wondering why credit and loans are so hard to get now even with the bailout... the reason is, the fed greatly increased the benefits of having high cash on hand in banks.  The government basically made it more profitable for banks to sit on their money then to lend it out unless they're stone cold solid that they're getting that money back.

Sorry, but you don't seem to understand what happened in the derivatives markets at all.  The real problem was that it was completely unregulated.  Derivatives were originally created to push off risk, but they became much more than that.  They started to be used in ways that they were not intended.  They could be used to bet that a company would fail.  They could be bought without owning the underlying asset.  It became a casino.  All the companies that bought and sold these became interlinked.  AIG couldn't be allowed to fail because they would have brought a lot of others down with them.

Obviously there is not enough time or space here to go into all of this.  There is plenty of info out there on it.  Try:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/

Again, your falling back on the lie that it was "too many people got loans in general that couldn't pay for them".  Did this happen?  Yes.  Was it a bad thing?  Yes.  But it pales in comparison with the "bets" made by these investment bankers.  To say it had nothing to do with the banks is to competely disregard reality.  The deregulation that started with Reagan allowed investment banks to merge with commercial banks. This led to much freer lending as the assets could be sold off by the investment branch.


Er... your still not getting it.  Do you know the value of the deritivitives market?

LOL.  I'm trying to help you understand, but you apparently aren't open to it.



whatever said:
Kasz216 said:
whatever said:
Kasz216 said:
whatever said:
Kasz216 said:

There were other factors involved.  However that very much WAS a factor.  A major one.

The US actually spends more money per capita then most countries when it comes to "spreading the wealth".

This is something most people don't realize.

The derivitives market itself was an extension of this... as is allowed home ownership to skyrocket to levels it shouldn't of skyrocketed too.

Said market wasn't made "because greed was good".  Said market was made because people wanted to "Spread the wealth of houses".

Because owning your own home is the cornerstone of the "American Dream."

Your way off base here.  You seem to be repeating the conservative mantra that it was Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac via the Communities Reinvestment Act that caused the crisis.  This has been thoroughly debunked by many sources.  Its just a way of blaming poor people for the problems created by the wealthy.  It's morally reprehensible.

The derivatives market is much bigger than anything mortgage related.  By many accounts, it is in the quadrillions.  The mortgage crisis was just the trigger that started the implosion.  It was inevitable that this implosion was going to occur, it was just a matter of when.

I'm not the one who's off base.  Again, the countries who are more conservative fiscally are fine, only liberally economic countries were hurt.  Why do you think that was?

Why do you think deritivitives only hurt fiscally liberal countries?

Derivitives are used to push off risk, that companies take, often at the behest of governments... and also often at their own wishes.

Why do these exist?  Because people are convinced to do so.  People are convinced to spend beyond their means... espiecally in fiscally liberal countries.


The problem didn't happen because of banks.  The problem happened because too many people got loans in general that couldn't pay for them.  Too many people were living beyond their means and too many people and coutnries had negative savings rates.  Throw in massive government spending and you've got a huge inflation of value with no real value to back it up.

Everytime someone takes out credit it creates "fake" value... when enough defaults happen, either by us, the government or both... bad things happen as everything shrinks back to were the value should naturally be.

Anyone who blames it on the banks just wants to avoid the real problem.  Government and decades of people being taught poor financial discipline.


Even the government has realized this.
  Well the poor financial discipline part anyway.  If your wondering why credit and loans are so hard to get now even with the bailout... the reason is, the fed greatly increased the benefits of having high cash on hand in banks.  The government basically made it more profitable for banks to sit on their money then to lend it out unless they're stone cold solid that they're getting that money back.

Sorry, but you don't seem to understand what happened in the derivatives markets at all.  The real problem was that it was completely unregulated.  Derivatives were originally created to push off risk, but they became much more than that.  They started to be used in ways that they were not intended.  They could be used to bet that a company would fail.  They could be bought without owning the underlying asset.  It became a casino.  All the companies that bought and sold these became interlinked.  AIG couldn't be allowed to fail because they would have brought a lot of others down with them.

Obviously there is not enough time or space here to go into all of this.  There is plenty of info out there on it.  Try:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/

Again, your falling back on the lie that it was "too many people got loans in general that couldn't pay for them".  Did this happen?  Yes.  Was it a bad thing?  Yes.  But it pales in comparison with the "bets" made by these investment bankers.  To say it had nothing to do with the banks is to competely disregard reality.  The deregulation that started with Reagan allowed investment banks to merge with commercial banks. This led to much freer lending as the assets could be sold off by the investment branch.


Er... your still not getting it.  Do you know the value of the deritivitives market?

LOL.  I'm trying to help you understand, but you apparently aren't open to it.

No, it's just a matter that you don't seem to understand the derivitives market.

What regulations exactly are supposed to prevent a crash of something that's market is like 20 times the world's GDP?

Short answer?  Nothing, except stopping the things that trigger said crash.  Which would be overdefaulting.

You can't get rid of the derivitives market or even properly regulate it... because it's bigger then the banks that were "too big to fail".... by a lot.


Derivitivies don't cause finanical collapses... they have the potential to make finanical collapses worse however if the company's in control have overextended themselves even then, it wasn't about them overextending themselves so much as when things got worse, the cost of doing buisness got more expensive, way more then they thought it'd be because everybody paniced.



Kasz216 said:
whatever said:
Kasz216 said:
whatever said:
Kasz216 said:
whatever said:
Kasz216 said:

There were other factors involved.  However that very much WAS a factor.  A major one.

The US actually spends more money per capita then most countries when it comes to "spreading the wealth".

This is something most people don't realize.

The derivitives market itself was an extension of this... as is allowed home ownership to skyrocket to levels it shouldn't of skyrocketed too.

Said market wasn't made "because greed was good".  Said market was made because people wanted to "Spread the wealth of houses".

Because owning your own home is the cornerstone of the "American Dream."

Your way off base here.  You seem to be repeating the conservative mantra that it was Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac via the Communities Reinvestment Act that caused the crisis.  This has been thoroughly debunked by many sources.  Its just a way of blaming poor people for the problems created by the wealthy.  It's morally reprehensible.

The derivatives market is much bigger than anything mortgage related.  By many accounts, it is in the quadrillions.  The mortgage crisis was just the trigger that started the implosion.  It was inevitable that this implosion was going to occur, it was just a matter of when.

I'm not the one who's off base.  Again, the countries who are more conservative fiscally are fine, only liberally economic countries were hurt.  Why do you think that was?

Why do you think deritivitives only hurt fiscally liberal countries?

Derivitives are used to push off risk, that companies take, often at the behest of governments... and also often at their own wishes.

Why do these exist?  Because people are convinced to do so.  People are convinced to spend beyond their means... espiecally in fiscally liberal countries.


The problem didn't happen because of banks.  The problem happened because too many people got loans in general that couldn't pay for them.  Too many people were living beyond their means and too many people and coutnries had negative savings rates.  Throw in massive government spending and you've got a huge inflation of value with no real value to back it up.

Everytime someone takes out credit it creates "fake" value... when enough defaults happen, either by us, the government or both... bad things happen as everything shrinks back to were the value should naturally be.

Anyone who blames it on the banks just wants to avoid the real problem.  Government and decades of people being taught poor financial discipline.


Even the government has realized this.
  Well the poor financial discipline part anyway.  If your wondering why credit and loans are so hard to get now even with the bailout... the reason is, the fed greatly increased the benefits of having high cash on hand in banks.  The government basically made it more profitable for banks to sit on their money then to lend it out unless they're stone cold solid that they're getting that money back.

Sorry, but you don't seem to understand what happened in the derivatives markets at all.  The real problem was that it was completely unregulated.  Derivatives were originally created to push off risk, but they became much more than that.  They started to be used in ways that they were not intended.  They could be used to bet that a company would fail.  They could be bought without owning the underlying asset.  It became a casino.  All the companies that bought and sold these became interlinked.  AIG couldn't be allowed to fail because they would have brought a lot of others down with them.

Obviously there is not enough time or space here to go into all of this.  There is plenty of info out there on it.  Try:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/

Again, your falling back on the lie that it was "too many people got loans in general that couldn't pay for them".  Did this happen?  Yes.  Was it a bad thing?  Yes.  But it pales in comparison with the "bets" made by these investment bankers.  To say it had nothing to do with the banks is to competely disregard reality.  The deregulation that started with Reagan allowed investment banks to merge with commercial banks. This led to much freer lending as the assets could be sold off by the investment branch.


Er... your still not getting it.  Do you know the value of the deritivitives market?

LOL.  I'm trying to help you understand, but you apparently aren't open to it.

No, it's just a matter that you don't seem to understand the derivitives market.

What regulations exactly are supposed to prevent a crash of something that's market is like 20 times the world's GDP?

Short answer?  Nothing, except stopping the things that trigger said crash.  Which would be overdefaulting.

You can't get rid of the derivitives market or even properly regulate it... because it's bigger then the banks that were "too big to fail".... by a lot.

Because it is so large, you can't regulate it?  Huh?  Transparency is a start.  Not allowing swaps to be used as bets, requiring you to own the underlying asset to buy a swap.  They could also be abolished completely going forward.

So your solution is to let this market crash and bring the world into a depression like we've never seen?  Yes, it may happen no matter what, but I'd rather we take a shot at lessening the impact.



The 1% wealthy elites along with corporations who run governments practice Socialism for the rich: corporate bailouts for criminal corporate elites, wars that only profiteer the wealthy elites and top 2% of society. Capitalism for the poor: mass unemployment, mass starvation and genocide in third world countries. The amount the US spends on military every year could feed the world 10 times over every year.