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Forums - General - What's your point of view in the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bomb?

finalrpgfantasy said:
babuks said:

USA can make bombs, drop them on innocent people and kill thousands of them, but if Iran even attempts to make one, it will be invaded.


what would happen if Iran drop a bomb on the city of the USA,  will the same person who say it was justify to drop the bomb in Japan will they think the same about USA.

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What is that post even supposed to mean?




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finalrpgfantasy said:
raptors11 said:

Casualties of the 2 atomic bombs - About 200,000

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Docs/MED/med_chp10.shtml

 

Chinese civilians killed by the Japanese during Japan's invasions of China during WWII - About 17 million

http://www.japan-101.com/history/sino1.htm

 

 

I don't feel bad at all for Japan. They killed so many civilians. Out of those 17 million chinese they killed it says 10 million or so were collateral damage of military operations which is understanble to some extent, but the other 7 million were basically murdered in non-military operations.

you are saying that every japanese person has the fault of the 17 million chinnese dead, the majority of the dead of the bomb were not soldiers, they were civilians who has no fault about the dead of the chinnese.

And a conventional invasion would have killed American troops, Japanese troops, MORE Japanese civilians than the a-bombs through starvation and carpet bombing, all the while potentially taking the war into 1946.

Why do people think conventional invasion was so clean at the time? Targeting civilian structures was commonplace in that period of war. Thankfully, the western world has progressed technology past that point.




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rocketpig said:
routsounmanman said:
mhsillen said:
routsounmanman said:

I can't believe what I'm hearing from some people! US went to war with Afghanistan and Iraq to "combat terrorism". With your logic, them nuking Los Angeles would have been a great resolve to end the war...

Seriously, nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki should be considered nothing less than terrorism and crimes of war, there's no spinning that.


oh bad usa bad

I'm japan was so Innocent

Do you know history?

I never said the Japanese were good folks. Every member of the Axis, and many of the Allies actually went on a killing spree during WW2, civilians included. You just can't claim that the US went on a crusade and the bombing was justifiable, no way.

They were crimes of war, end of story.

Then everyone in WWII was guilty of crimes of war. Dresden, London, Leningrad, Tokyo, Nanking, continue ad nauseum.

It was a war where carpet bombing entire cities and civilians was commonplace. It was an ugly war and ugly things had to be done to finish it.


Once again, ONLY if you accept the premise that the Japanese didn't want to surrender. They did.



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KichiVerde said:
bazmeistergen said:


This information is fine and all, but only if you accept the incorrect assumption that the Japanese didn't want to surrender. They did, but not in the way the politicians of the allies were willing to accept.

Right. The Japanese did not want to surrender unconditionally because it would have led to the removal of the Emperor from power and his possible indictment in war crimes tribunal. The same applied to all high ranking military leaders in the country. They had hoped to prolong the war long enough to force an armistice with the Allies (Operation Ketsugo).  They even anticipated the invasion course the Americans would take and were planning countermeasures. Their predicitons were very close to what was laid out in Operation Downfall.

In any event it was necessary for the Allies to demand unconditional surrender. They had demanded it of Germany. So why not Japan?  Since the Meiji Restoration Japan had become an Imperial player hellbent on expansion. Why take the risk of giving them a second chance? That was the lesson learned during WWI. The armistice resolved nothing in the long run and Germany went on to invade Austria in spite of the treaties. Then when they invaded Poland the Second World War began. Japan could have just as easily tried to pull the same thing with Korea and China.

Moreover, Japan were the aggressors. Their unprovoked attack of Pearl Harbor demonstrated they were not to be trusted.

 

The Japanese would not have surrendered anytime soon had the Hiroshima bomb not been dropped. An abrupt end to the war was best for everyone.

The attack on Pearl Harbor was hardly unprovoked. The US had been supporting and supplying the Chinese, handing out oil embargos on the Japanese. From the Japanese perspective, that IS provocation.

George Kennan (after learning from his mistakes) suggested that we try to see things through our 'opponents' eyes because we expect them to see through ours.



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KichiVerde said:
bazmeistergen said:


This information is fine and all, but only if you accept the incorrect assumption that the Japanese didn't want to surrender. They did, but not in the way the politicians of the allies were willing to accept.

Right. The Japanese did not want to surrender unconditionally because it would have led to the removal of the Emperor from power and his possible indictment in war crimes tribunal. The same applied to all high ranking military leaders in the country. They had hoped to prolong the war long enough to force an armistice with the Allies (Operation Ketsugo).  They even anticipated the invasion course the Americans would take and were planning countermeasures. Their predicitons were very close to what was laid out in Operation Downfall.

In any event it was necessary for the Allies to demand unconditional surrender. They had demanded it of Germany. So why not Japan?  Since the Meiji Restoration Japan had become an Imperial player hellbent on expansion. Why take the risk of giving them a second chance? That was the lesson learned during WWI. The armistice resolved nothing in the long run and Germany went on to invade Austria in spite of the treaties. Then when they invaded Poland the Second World War began. Japan could have just as easily tried to pull the same thing with Korea and China. 

Moreover, Japan were the aggressors. Their unprovoked attack of Pearl Harbor demonstrated they were not to be trusted.

 

The Japanese would not have surrendered anytime soon had the Hiroshima bomb not been dropped. An abrupt end to the war was best for everyone.

this is true, but one thing.  The situation with Germany that led up to WW2 was a direct result of the allies not working together, and not enforcing the treaty.  What you said works too, but it still could have easily been avoided if the US and Britain didn't allow Germany to do whatever they wanted.   The US still believed in isolation, and this war is what made the US what it is today. 



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I myself am totally ashamed of Nato's war with Japan. Here in Canada Japanese citizens were rounded up and put in camps their property ceased and sold. But the bombs in my opinion were the second biggest criminal act in recorded history second only to the Holocaust.

I was taught in my social studies class something that American's aren't taught in theirs. Infact only a small paragraph about it was in my text book. According to my text book in July the Japanese Emperor sent an ambassador to Russia to talk about ending the war with America. At the time Russia was preparing to enter the war and had strong diplomatic ties to the United States. The Japanese Envoy tried to make a deal with the US through Russia. Pretty much a cease and desist deal in which Japan would cease hostilities.

However the United States wasn't satisfied with Japan's change of heart. They decided not to start up talks and not to negotiate an end to the war. Of course Japan also did not publically denounce the war their negotiations were shot down so the emperor continued with the public propaganda.

So a month after Japan tried to make peace the US bombed the living crap out of them, not once but twice.

In my opinion the Nukes were nothing but a show of force. The US government wanted the whole world to know you don't mess with America. They wanted to strike fear into the hearts of the rest of the world. It worked but at what cost? Hundreds of thousands of lives for what? So that American's could feel superior for a little while? That started a major arms race which lead to the cold war.

What if the US never nuked Hiroshima or Nagasaki? Would Russia have felt threatened and rushed into a nuclear arms race with the US. Would China have ever united under communist leadership? Would the Korean war have occured. Infact all of the late 1900's could have been drastically changed in our favour.

The world would have been a far better place for all of us if the US had just started surrender talks and negotiated a cease fire and peace agreement with Japan



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bazmeistergen said:
KichiVerde said:
bazmeistergen said:


This information is fine and all, but only if you accept the incorrect assumption that the Japanese didn't want to surrender. They did, but not in the way the politicians of the allies were willing to accept.

Right. The Japanese did not want to surrender unconditionally because it would have led to the removal of the Emperor from power and his possible indictment in war crimes tribunal. The same applied to all high ranking military leaders in the country. They had hoped to prolong the war long enough to force an armistice with the Allies (Operation Ketsugo).  They even anticipated the invasion course the Americans would take and were planning countermeasures. Their predicitons were very close to what was laid out in Operation Downfall.

In any event it was necessary for the Allies to demand unconditional surrender. They had demanded it of Germany. So why not Japan?  Since the Meiji Restoration Japan had become an Imperial player hellbent on expansion. Why take the risk of giving them a second chance? That was the lesson learned during WWI. The armistice resolved nothing in the long run and Germany went on to invade Austria in spite of the treaties. Then when they invaded Poland the Second World War began. Japan could have just as easily tried to pull the same thing with Korea and China.

Moreover, Japan were the aggressors. Their unprovoked attack of Pearl Harbor demonstrated they were not to be trusted.

 

The Japanese would not have surrendered anytime soon had the Hiroshima bomb not been dropped. An abrupt end to the war was best for everyone.

The attack on Pearl Harbor was hardly unprovoked. The US had been supporting and supplying the Chinese, handing out oil embargos on the Japanese. From the Japanese perspective, that IS provocation.

George Kennan (after learning from his mistakes) suggested that we try to see things through our 'opponents' eyes because we expect them to see through ours.


The Japanese did not have to attack territories within the US sphere of influence. They could have focused on French, Dutch and British colonial interests instead, and America aside from imposing their embargo likely would have cared less. The average American at the time had an isolationist view on the war and did not want to get involved. It would have been very difficult to get public support behind a war effort had Japan not attacked Pearl Harbor. There was plenty of oil and other resources in South East Asia the Japanese could have exploited without starting a full scale military conflict with the US.

Japan attacked America because it felt threatened and thought that by eliminating the US' largest Naval presence in the Pacific, that it would A, set America back at least a year logistically, and B, possibly deter them from becoming involved in continued violence. Interestingly, Isoroku Yamamoto, the man who designed the attack, was against it because he knew Japan could never defeat America in an all out war, but his superiors insisted on carrying out the plan anyway.

Plain and simple. Japan was not provoked. They could have made due with Southeast Asia and China. They were imperialists. They tried to take what was not theirs at the expense of others. Over 20 million Asians victims perished as a direct result. The 300,000 Japanese that died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki pales in comparison. America had to put a stop to the carnage that the Japanese started. They brought it upon themselves.





bazmeistergen said:
rocketpig said:
routsounmanman said:
mhsillen said:
routsounmanman said:

I can't believe what I'm hearing from some people! US went to war with Afghanistan and Iraq to "combat terrorism". With your logic, them nuking Los Angeles would have been a great resolve to end the war...

Seriously, nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki should be considered nothing less than terrorism and crimes of war, there's no spinning that.


oh bad usa bad

I'm japan was so Innocent

Do you know history?

I never said the Japanese were good folks. Every member of the Axis, and many of the Allies actually went on a killing spree during WW2, civilians included. You just can't claim that the US went on a crusade and the bombing was justifiable, no way.

They were crimes of war, end of story.

Then everyone in WWII was guilty of crimes of war. Dresden, London, Leningrad, Tokyo, Nanking, continue ad nauseum.

It was a war where carpet bombing entire cities and civilians was commonplace. It was an ugly war and ugly things had to be done to finish it.


Once again, ONLY if you accept the premise that the Japanese didn't want to surrender. They did.

Even AFTER the bombs were dropped, there were factions within Japan that resisted and tried to stop the surrender.

Some of your assumptions that the Japanese were ready to roll over and give up completely are greatly overstated.




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It was a war crime plain and simple. Dropping an A-bomb over a full fledged city where you know that everything within an x-mile radius is going to be obliterated is genocide. 



 

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then live on one's knees

HappySqurriel said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:

Dropping those bombs is one of the greatest crimes against humanity ever committed.

I don't understand how anybody can still defend them.  Their argument seems to be that it was minimizing potential casualties by stopping the war as quickly as possible.  However, they're deciding that murdering countless innocent children and women and even non-Japanese was okay, as long as it minimized the deaths of U.S. soldiers and Japanese soldiers.  I disagree.  I don't think non-combat troops get to be a part of those equations.

Traditional bombs would have been cheaper, cleaner, more successful, and even deadlier.  More people died in the traditional bombing of Tokyo (but without mutated babies and decades of radiation poisoning).

We were just trying to scare the USSR by showing off our new weapons.  We weren't ending WW2 with the nukes; we were starting the Cold War.


You're missing the point that avoiding conventional invasion also (most likely) minimized the number of civilian causalities. Looking at the civilian casualties faced during the other military campaigns, it is not that outrageous to suggest that Japan could have faced between 500,000 to 2 Million civilian casualties due to a conventional invasion; and preventing the deaths of hundreds of thousands/millions of civilian casualties through an act that will kill tens of thousands of them is justifiable.

Now that you mention it, the amount of Russian soldiers and civilians killed in WW2 is one of highest in the history of mankind.



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