extreme in what way?  I hate fighting, treat everyone I know with respect and I have no enemies.

I think independently thats extreme? 

So what would you describe the Japanese civilians as, if not innocent bystanders

And no, I shall infact repeat that the United States government was wrong to drop the bomb - I give a simple answer because it's not a tricky scenario, murdering civilians is so obviously wrong that there's no need to complicate things.

I don't give a fuck if the Allies murdered every single member of the Japanese army, but you do not kill civilians, ever. If you can't grasp that, then I am out of this discussion and you terrify me.

Preferable to invasion

Winston Churchill, leader of the Opposition, in a speech to the British House of Commons, August 1945^[6]

A map outlining the Japanese and U.S. (but not other Allied) ground forces scheduled to take part in the ground battle for Japan. Two landings were planned:
(1) Olympic—the invasion of the southern island, KyÅ«shÅ«,
(2) Coronet—the invasion of the main island, HonshÅ«.

March 1946's Operation Coronet was planned to take Tokyo with a landing of 25 divisions, compared to D-Day's 12 Divisions.

Those who argue in favor of the decision to drop the atom bombs argue that massive casualties on both sides would have occurred in Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of Japan.^[7]

The U.S. side anticipated losing many soldiers in the planned invasion of Japan, although the actual number of expected fatalities and wounded is subject to some debate. U.S. President Truman stated after the war that he had been advised that U.S. casualties could range from 250,000 to one million men.^[8] In a study done by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in April 1945, the figures of 7.45 casualties per 1,000 man-days and 1.78 fatalities per 1,000 man-days were developed. This implied that the two planned campaigns to conquer Japan would cost 1.6 million U.S. casualties, including 370,000 dead.^[9]

In addition, millions of Japanese military and civilian casualties were expected.^[10] An Air Force Association history says, "Millions of women, old men, and boys and girls had been trained to resist by such means as attacking with bamboo spears and strapping explosives to their bodies and throwing themselves under advancing tanks,"^[11] and also that "[t]he Japanese cabinet had approved a measure extending the draft to include men from ages fifteen to sixty and women from seventeen to forty-five (an additional 28 million people).^[12]

Supporters also point to an order given by the Japanese War Ministry on 1 August 1944, ordering the disposal and execution of all Allied prisoners of war, numbering over 100,000, if an invasion of the Japanese mainland took place.^[13]

Nearly 500,000 Purple Heart medals were manufactured in anticipation of the casualties resulting from the invasion of Japan. To the present date, all the American military casualties of the sixty years following the end of World War II—including the Korean and Vietnam Wars—have not exceeded that number. In 2003, there were still 120,000 of these Purple Heart medals in stock.^[14] There are so many in surplus that combat units in Iraq andAfghanistan are able to keep Purple Hearts on-hand for immediate award to wounded soldiers on the field.^[14]

[edit]Speedy end of war saved lives

Supporters of the bombing also argue that waiting for the Japanese to surrender was not a cost-free option. "For China alone, depending upon what number one chooses for overall Chinese casualties, in each of the ninety-seven months between July 1937 and August 1945, somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 persons perished, the vast majority of them noncombatants. For the other Asian states alone, the average probably ranged in the tens of thousands per month, but the actual numbers were almost certainly greater in 1945, notably due to the mass death in a famine in Vietnam. Newman concluded that each month that the war continued in 1945 would have produced the deaths of 'upwards of 250,000 people, mostly Asian but some Westerners.'"^[15][16]

The end of the war also liberated millions of laborers working in harsh conditions under a forced mobilization. In the Dutch East Indies, there was a "forced mobilization of some 4 million—although some estimates are as high as 10 million—romusha (manual laborers)...About 270,000 romusha were sent to the Outer Islands and Japanese-held territories in Southeast Asia, where they joined other Asians in performing wartime construction projects. At the end of the war, only 52,000 were repatriated to Java."^{[17][clarification needed]}

The firebombing of Tokyo had killed well over 100,000 people in Japan since February 1945, directly and indirectly. Intensive conventional bombing would have continued or increased prior to an invasion. The submarine blockade and the United States Army Air Forces's mining operation, Operation Starvation, had effectively cut off Japan's imports. A complementary operation against Japan's railways was about to begin, isolating the cities of southern HonshÅ« from the food grown elsewhere in the Home Islands. "Immediately after the defeat, some estimated that 10 million people were likely to starve to death," noted historian Daikichi Irokawa.^[18] Meanwhile, fighting continued in The Philippines, New Guinea and Borneo, and offensives were scheduled for September in southern China and Malaya. The Soviet invasion of Manchuria, had in the week before the surrender caused over 80,000 deaths.^[19]

In September 1945, nuclear physicist Karl T. Compton, who himself took part in the Manhattan Project, visited MacArthur's headquarters in Tokyo, and following his visit wrote a defensive article, in which he summarized his conclusions as follows: "If the atomic bomb had not been used, evidence like that I have cited points to the practical certainty that there would have been many more months of death and destruction on an enormous scale".^[20]

Philippine justice Delfin Jaranilla, member of the Tokyo tribunal, wrote in his judgment:

I like how people keep justifying stuff with numbers and what if scenarios ... plain and simple it was just wrong.

We are talking about human lives here not numbers or figures, but of course the world is what it is and war is just a terrible reality.

I personally don't understand the "It was just wrong" argument ...

Every decision made on how to finish the war in Japan would have resulted in civilian casualties and would have had long lasting impacts on the people of Japan; as well as casualties to military forces and civilians in regions captured by Japan. Every realistic alternative based on reasonable assumptions on how Japan would have reacted and the kinds of casualties that everyone would have faced indicates that there was a massive reduction in the number of casualties on all sides because the bombs were dropped.

You have to consider that the Japanese were so against surrender that even after the Hiroshima bombing, and the Soviet Union agreed to enter the war to aid the United States, they were still unwilling to surrender. It was only after the bombing of Nagasaki that Japan surrendered. If one atomic blast and the entry of another massive military into the war isn't enough to make you surrender, how likely would have they been to surrender without a full invasion; and how many casualties would have been faced in tha situation?

They were not unwilling to surrender. They were unwilling to surrender unconditionally. That is a big difference.

And Mhsillen, I am taking a stand, against simplifications of history and against government tyranny and injustice wherever it is. I agree with you regarding America taking a lot of flack, but it results from the overbearing part of the community that still believes in Manifest Destiny and that the government works for good - which is rubbish.

mhsillen said: Preferable to invasion “ There were those who considered that the atomic bomb should never have been used at all. I cannot associate myself with such ideas… I am surprised that very worthy people—but people who in most cases had no intention of proceeding to the Japanese front themselves—should adopt a position that rather than throw this bomb we should have sacrificed a million American and a quarter of a million British lives… ” Winston Churchill, leader of the Opposition, in a speech to the British House of Commons, August 1945[6] A map outlining the Japanese and U.S. (but not other Allied) ground forces scheduled to take part in the ground battle for Japan. Two landings were planned: (1) Olympic—the invasion of the southern island, KyÅ«shÅ«, (2) Coronet—the invasion of the main island, HonshÅ«. March 1946's Operation Coronet was planned to take Tokyo with a landing of 25 divisions, compared to D-Day's 12 Divisions. Those who argue in favor of the decision to drop the atom bombs argue that massive casualties on both sides would have occurred in Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of Japan.[7] The U.S. side anticipated losing many soldiers in the planned invasion of Japan, although the actual number of expected fatalities and wounded is subject to some debate. U.S. President Truman stated after the war that he had been advised that U.S. casualties could range from 250,000 to one million men.[8] In a study done by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in April 1945, the figures of 7.45 casualties per 1,000 man-days and 1.78 fatalities per 1,000 man-days were developed. This implied that the two planned campaigns to conquer Japan would cost 1.6 million U.S. casualties, including 370,000 dead.[9] In addition, millions of Japanese military and civilian casualties were expected.[10] An Air Force Association history says, "Millions of women, old men, and boys and girls had been trained to resist by such means as attacking with bamboo spears and strapping explosives to their bodies and throwing themselves under advancing tanks,"[11] and also that "[t]he Japanese cabinet had approved a measure extending the draft to include men from ages fifteen to sixty and women from seventeen to forty-five (an additional 28 million people).[12] Supporters also point to an order given by the Japanese War Ministry on 1 August 1944, ordering the disposal and execution of all Allied prisoners of war, numbering over 100,000, if an invasion of the Japanese mainland took place.[13] Nearly 500,000 Purple Heart medals were manufactured in anticipation of the casualties resulting from the invasion of Japan. To the present date, all the American military casualties of the sixty years following the end of World War II—including the Korean and Vietnam Wars—have not exceeded that number. In 2003, there were still 120,000 of these Purple Heart medals in stock.[14] There are so many in surplus that combat units in Iraq andAfghanistan are able to keep Purple Hearts on-hand for immediate award to wounded soldiers on the field.[14] [edit]Speedy end of war saved lives Supporters of the bombing also argue that waiting for the Japanese to surrender was not a cost-free option. "For China alone, depending upon what number one chooses for overall Chinese casualties, in each of the ninety-seven months between July 1937 and August 1945, somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 persons perished, the vast majority of them noncombatants. For the other Asian states alone, the average probably ranged in the tens of thousands per month, but the actual numbers were almost certainly greater in 1945, notably due to the mass death in a famine in Vietnam. Newman concluded that each month that the war continued in 1945 would have produced the deaths of 'upwards of 250,000 people, mostly Asian but some Westerners.'"[15][16] The end of the war also liberated millions of laborers working in harsh conditions under a forced mobilization. In the Dutch East Indies, there was a "forced mobilization of some 4 million—although some estimates are as high as 10 million—romusha (manual laborers)...About 270,000 romusha were sent to the Outer Islands and Japanese-held territories in Southeast Asia, where they joined other Asians in performing wartime construction projects. At the end of the war, only 52,000 were repatriated to Java."[17][clarification needed] The firebombing of Tokyo had killed well over 100,000 people in Japan since February 1945, directly and indirectly. Intensive conventional bombing would have continued or increased prior to an invasion. The submarine blockade and the United States Army Air Forces's mining operation, Operation Starvation, had effectively cut off Japan's imports. A complementary operation against Japan's railways was about to begin, isolating the cities of southern HonshÅ« from the food grown elsewhere in the Home Islands. "Immediately after the defeat, some estimated that 10 million people were likely to starve to death," noted historian Daikichi Irokawa.[18] Meanwhile, fighting continued in The Philippines, New Guinea and Borneo, and offensives were scheduled for September in southern China and Malaya. The Soviet invasion of Manchuria, had in the week before the surrender caused over 80,000 deaths.[19] In September 1945, nuclear physicist Karl T. Compton, who himself took part in the Manhattan Project, visited MacArthur's headquarters in Tokyo, and following his visit wrote a defensive article, in which he summarized his conclusions as follows: "If the atomic bomb had not been used, evidence like that I have cited points to the practical certainty that there would have been many more months of death and destruction on an enormous scale".[20] Philippine justice Delfin Jaranilla, member of the Tokyo tribunal, wrote in his judgment: "If a means is justified by an end, the use of the atomic bomb was justified for it brought Japan to her knees and ended the horrible war. If the war had gone longer, without the use of the atomic bomb, how many thousands and thousands of helpless men, women and children would have needlessly died and suffer ...?"[21] Main article: Operation Downfall

This information is fine and all, but only if you accept the incorrect assumption that the Japanese didn't want to surrender. They did, but not in the way the politicians of the allies were willing to accept.

Facts:

1. Japan entered the war joining the Axis by themselves and invaded China.

2. America forced Japan into war with them with the embargo / Pearl Harbor incident (as foretold, they needed a reason to enter the war, as people didn't care too much about Europe)

3. All members of the Axis did terrible, cruel massacres. The Allies joined the fun afterwards (do you think German soldiers / prisoners / civilians after the war were treated with flowers or something?)

4. America did not enter the war out of compassion, they had interests. It was not a crusade.

5. Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing was unjustifiable and immoral, not matter the alternatives. Plain simple wrong, immoral and a WAR CRIME (half the WW2 was a crime, actually)

It needed to be done. More civilians would have died in a conventional invasion and the Russians would have demanded a piece of Japan (they were beginning to move equipment east to "assist" in the invasion).

Overall, the Japanese should thank the US for dropping those bombs. More civilians probably would have died via carpet bombing and we'd be looking at a N Korea/S Korea split in Japan right now if the Russians became involved.

Then everyone in WWII was guilty of crimes of war. Dresden, London, Leningrad, Tokyo, Nanking, continue ad nauseum.

It was a war where carpet bombing entire cities and civilians was commonplace. It was an ugly war and ugly things had to be done to finish it.