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Forums - General - Ground Zero Imam Says USA worse than Al-qaeda & caused 9-11

^ I didn't say so, but I concur with zucas. 



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Around the Network
Mr.Metralha said:
Severance said:

Stop posting bullshit threads.

Bullshit thread is the one you created with flamebait for the Nintendo crowd.

Ontopic: The way the twin towers came down was way too perfect to be caused by a mere plane crash. That's why I believe that there's something on the story that hasn't been told already.

As for al-Qaeda, I named a dog after them, that's the respect I have for those gentleman's.


The Twin Towers collapsed because of the heat cause by the burning jet fuel on the structural steel. Obviously the terrorists had studied engineering and knew what it took to bring them down.



DrStephenTColbert said:

While I agree that the sudden installation of a Chinese or Iranian style government would be horrible, there's a point that needs to be considered.  How is the (vast) minority of the population going to oppress the majority?  America has some of the greatest individual freedoms in the world.  This has lead to the growth of a vibrant, prosperous nation that 3/4 of the rest of the world would do anything to be a part of.  I just don't understand why we worry about these non-issues when there are real and significant threats that we could be worrying about.  (I'm looking at you, North Korea)


actually... that's what any military regime/ dictatorship / monarchy (non parlementary) is about... a minority oppressing the majority.

Now this is impossible in the US for the reasons you said, but it's very probable in most places in the world.

Heck I believe France (my country) will lose its cultural values in the close future due to an overabundant immigration that does not integrate (and for the most part because it doesn't want to integrate, their initial goal is to go back home, someday)... but if I say anything like that publicly, i'd be tagged as a fascist, a nazist or whatever... when I have nothing against the immigrants, just against the innapropriate regulation of the flow at the gates.



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Who cares what he said?  I can legally say all that, and even more offensive stuff, and then go open a church or a temple tomorrow.  I could probably even open up a mosque without anybody noticing, because I'm white.

Also, nobody's opening a mosque at ground zero.  Nobody's building anything at ground zero, ever.  They've been "thinking about it" for 9 years now.  But these other guys are actually going to build something useful, a community center with a culinary school, a mosque, and a gym, two blocks away, and they'll have it done faster.

They have the right to bulid it, and you have the right to whine about it on the internet.  Looks like everybody's making use of their rights here.  I don't see a problem.  Good night everybody.



Final-Fan said:


"WWII was always going to be won by the side with the USA on it" would be a more accurate statement. 


http://www.olive-drab.com/od_history_ww2_stories_germanatomicsnorway.php

Or Norway.

These 10 people, changed the war. Most experts agree is this plant was not destroyed, Germany would have developed atomic weapons before the US.

If you want to watch a movie about it, there is this one:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059263/

Although not completely accurate, it drives the point home.

 

EDIT: If you want a more accurate file (not in English however), there is this one:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040504/



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Hephaestos said:
DrStephenTColbert said:

 You have your history a bit wrong.  WWII was always going to be won by the side with Russia on it.  What America did was prevent the rest of Europe from falling to Communism by building the atomic bomb. 

At the time Bin Laden was a mujahideen, and great ally of the US. Then the US invaded Kuwait.  Bin Laden believed that the Iraq-Kuwait situation should have been dealt with by Muslims, and that western forces had no business being in the gulf.  This is the event that caused Bin Laden to drop his ties with the US and become a terrorist.

errrr lol... yeah germany was losing to russia... cause they had the western front. Without US support, the UK would have dropped and germany could have reallocated resources to fight russia... moreover, without the US, Russia would have had to deal with Japan. And what are you talking about with the atomic bomb... that came after the end of the war in europe, it has nothing to do with anything....

 

OMG the US invaded Kuwait..... you mean Iraq I hope no? the US never invaded Kuwait... they liberated it from the invasion Sadam had just lead a few weeks before.... and that was with support of the saudis and all the others (muslim countries were favorable to the western forces liberating Kuwait, as getting Kuwait would have given too much weight to Iraq with the oil).

I should have been more clear...the US liberated Kuwait, alongside Saudi and Egyptian forces.  They absolutely did invade Kuwait.  The ground and air incursion was made at the behest of the Kuwaiti people who were invaded by the Iraqis a few months earlier.  Invade was, however, a poor choice of words.  The US military intent was not to plunder Kuwait, so I apologize for the misstatement.  The larger point that I was making was that the reason Osama hates the US is because of Desert Storm.  Up until that point we were good pals.

At the conclusion of the second world war, the Russians had planned on continuing the push east.  They had a tremendous strategic advantage over the Allied forces.  While the dropping of the atomic bomb had the effect of forcing Japan's hand and bringing the war to a close, it also showed Stalin that the Americans weren't at a strategic disadvantage.

As for the western front, the eastern front was four times the size of the western front.  It was larger than the rest of the phases of the war put together.  While it's possible (not likely) that without the western front, the Germans may have been able to overrun Russia, it's almost a certainty that without the Eastern front, the Allies would never have been able to gain a toehold in Europe.  Hitler could have pushed for peace with the Americans, and Europe would be speaking a whole lot more German than it is today.  

I'm not trying to minimize the heroic contribution of America to WWII.  There's no question that without the Americans, the Japanese probably still occupy most of Southeast Asia.  There's also no question that the American military machine was the most efficient in the world due to the degree of industrialisation within the US.  But to think that the US played a larger role in defeating the Germans than Russia is a poor account of history at best.  Even saying that we jumped in and saved England is a stretch.  They defeated the German's without American help in the Battle of Britain.  The Germans abandoned their plans for an amphibious assault at that time.

I highly suggest reading up on Operation Barbarossa.  It will give you some insight as to why the Germans invaded when they souldn't have, and what lengths the Russians were prepared to go to in order to defeat the Germans.  Make no mistake, the Russians could have pushed further west at the end of the war.  They had superior numbers and shorter supply lines.  The atomic bomb was a key deterrent in that respect.



Hephaestos said:
DrStephenTColbert said:

While I agree that the sudden installation of a Chinese or Iranian style government would be horrible, there's a point that needs to be considered.  How is the (vast) minority of the population going to oppress the majority?  America has some of the greatest individual freedoms in the world.  This has lead to the growth of a vibrant, prosperous nation that 3/4 of the rest of the world would do anything to be a part of.  I just don't understand why we worry about these non-issues when there are real and significant threats that we could be worrying about.  (I'm looking at you, North Korea)


actually... that's what any military regime/ dictatorship / monarchy (non parlementary) is about... a minority oppressing the majority.

Now this is impossible in the US for the reasons you said, but it's very probable in most places in the world.

Heck I believe France (my country) will lose its cultural values in the close future due to an overabundant immigration that does not integrate (and for the most part because it doesn't want to integrate, their initial goal is to go back home, someday)... but if I say anything like that publicly, i'd be tagged as a fascist, a nazist or whatever... when I have nothing against the immigrants, just against the innapropriate regulation of the flow at the gates.

A lack of clarity on my part.  I was referring the idea of American ideals being suppressed inside America by the minority.  Thanks for correcting me.  And you make a very salient second point.  As much as we complain about border security in the US, the illegal immigration issues in Europe are far more troubling.



TheRealMafoo said:
Final-Fan said:


"WWII was always going to be won by the side with the USA on it" would be a more accurate statement. 


http://www.olive-drab.com/od_history_ww2_stories_germanatomicsnorway.php

Or Norway.

These 10 people, changed the war. Most experts agree is this plant was not destroyed, Germany would have developed atomic weapons before the US.

If you want to watch a movie about it, there is this one:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059263/

Although not completely accurate, it drives the point home.

 

EDIT: If you want a more accurate file (not in English however), there is this one:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040504/

No doubt there was some absolute heroism in bringing down the heavy water facility.  That being said, most experts believe that Germany was never very close to the atomic bomb.  Germany decided fairly early on that an atomic weapon wouldn't end the war (Ha!) and it wasn't a priority for the largest part of the war.  Jeremy Bernstein's "Hitler's Uranium Club" is worth a read if you're interested.  That movie looks like it'll be worth a watch.  Thanks for the info!



DrStephenTColbert said:
Hephaestos said:
DrStephenTColbert said:

While I agree that the sudden installation of a Chinese or Iranian style government would be horrible, there's a point that needs to be considered.  How is the (vast) minority of the population going to oppress the majority?  America has some of the greatest individual freedoms in the world.  This has lead to the growth of a vibrant, prosperous nation that 3/4 of the rest of the world would do anything to be a part of.  I just don't understand why we worry about these non-issues when there are real and significant threats that we could be worrying about.  (I'm looking at you, North Korea)


actually... that's what any military regime/ dictatorship / monarchy (non parlementary) is about... a minority oppressing the majority.

Now this is impossible in the US for the reasons you said, but it's very probable in most places in the world.

Heck I believe France (my country) will lose its cultural values in the close future due to an overabundant immigration that does not integrate (and for the most part because it doesn't want to integrate, their initial goal is to go back home, someday)... but if I say anything like that publicly, i'd be tagged as a fascist, a nazist or whatever... when I have nothing against the immigrants, just against the innapropriate regulation of the flow at the gates.

A lack of clarity on my part.  I was referring the idea of American ideals being suppressed inside America by the minority.  Thanks for correcting me.  And you make a very salient second point.  As much as we complain about border security in the US, the illegal immigration issues in Europe are far more troubling.

actually I forgot my other point where I was gonna say:

but you're right, a minority cannot oppress the majority of the american people, because that is the one nation in the world where the majority is not silent.



OoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO

DrStephenTColbert said:
At the conclusion of the second world war, the Russians had planned on continuing the push east.  They had a tremendous strategic advantage over the Allied forces.  While the dropping of the atomic bomb had the effect of forcing Japan's hand and bringing the war to a close, it also showed Stalin that the Americans weren't at a strategic disadvantage.

As for the western front, the eastern front was four times the size of the western front.  It was larger than the rest of the phases of the war put together.  While it's possible (not likely) that without the western front, the Germans may have been able to overrun Russia, it's almost a certainty that without the Eastern front, the Allies would never have been able to gain a toehold in Europe.  Hitler could have pushed for peace with the Americans, and Europe would be speaking a whole lot more German than it is today.  

I'm not trying to minimize the heroic contribution of America to WWII.  There's no question that without the Americans, the Japanese probably still occupy most of Southeast Asia.  There's also no question that the American military machine was the most efficient in the world due to the degree of industrialisation within the US.  But to think that the US played a larger role in defeating the Germans than Russia is a poor account of history at best.  Even saying that we jumped in and saved England is a stretch.  They defeated the German's without American help in the Battle of Britain.  The Germans abandoned their plans for an amphibious assault at that time.

I highly suggest reading up on Operation Barbarossa.  It will give you some insight as to why the Germans invaded when they souldn't have, and what lengths the Russians were prepared to go to in order to defeat the Germans.  Make no mistake, the Russians could have pushed further west at the end of the war.  They had superior numbers and shorter supply lines.  The atomic bomb was a key deterrent in that respect.

Well, yes, if the Nazis had remained pals with the USSR, they would probably not have been defeatable.  But I think we both know that was never going to happen.  It was a question of who betrayed whom first. 

All Russia had was oil and men.  All Stalin seemed to know how to do was constantly send waves of men at the Germans, and his generals couldn't take a piss without permission (or risking execution).  Notwithstanding the bravery of the Soviet troops, or their massive numbers, I'm not sure you're appreciating the sheer amount of materiel that the USSR was in poor shape to provide and which was provided to them by the rest of the Allies.  Meanwhile, the huge numbers of troops Germany sent to France in 1944 COULD have been going east, but they didn't.  Are you really going to tell me it's a coincidence that this just happens to be when the USSR finally got the upper hand there?  I had a book about this I was going to doublecheck, but I think I loaned it to someone. 

If you simply  look at how much the US fought the Germans vs. how much the USSR fought the Germans, obviously the USSR was the one taking it on the nose.  But one thing contributing to that appearance is that, and I'll quote or paraphrase a book here, "the Russian way of putting out a fire in both world wars was to pile bodies on it till it smothered".  Another point is that, as I said, a lot of the work on the eastern front was actually done by the USA, by way of supplies. 

As for the other thing:  if Patton thought we could take them on, I'd be surprised if they had such a huge advantage as you seem to be claiming.  (I doubt he had nukes in mind when he talked about it.)  Other than that I am not so knowledgeable about the immediate postwar situation that I feel confident hypothesizing the outcome of such a war.  Except to say that guess who wouldn't be getting any more American trucks to use. 

[edit:  lol, yes they were brave, but I didn't have to say it twice.]



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!