Nice to see that you were just waiting upon an escape means out of that loosing argument that you were having  

I never said that you were hypocrite did I? I just said that dismissing a FACT and complaining about a non-issue while still using that thing that annoyed you, was falling into hypocrite grounds. If you feel that you're an hypocrite yourself, then kudos to you, I'm not debating your opinion of yourself.

As the OP, if theres something i havent done right, please tell me. like i said, i dont want a flame war, just a friendly discussion. your opinions are welcome here!

He was talking to me, don't worry, I don't think you've done nothing wrong to him. 

He just took my words out of context to get out of a debate. Oh well.

Hmmm, you have a point, the thread is based on my own personal opinion. I felt both were flawed games but both also have great aspects. but imo FF12 was a flawed game because Matsuno left the project. thats not to say it wouldve been perfect, we simply dont know how well it wouldve turned out.(i think it wouldve been a lot better).

but my point is that the reason Matsuno left the project was because of his lack of cooperation to make the game in the same vien that Kitase, Nomura & Nojima have taken the series. and FF13 represents the fulfilment of their vision of how to make an FF game. and FF13 has the worst meta-critic score and imo, its not a good FF game. the stuff i've discussed are things that a lot of well respected publicaitions like Edge, or gamespot have slated it for. my point is that FF13 has been the wrong direction for the series and it shows when compared to FF12!! and i think a lot of fans feel the same even if they didnt like FF12.

I think if you look at the character design, its only actully Penelo and Vaan who suck. imo Basch, Fran, Ashe and Balthier look just awesome. at least they were different from Nomura's designs. I agree open world works, but at the beginning linear design is so much better for telling a story driven game, where character development is also important. somthing FF12 was lacking. personally i think if you take a look at the cutscenes i provided links to, you'll see even if you didnt like FF12, the dialogue, characters, story, just plain intellegence in the script writing is so much better.

Did SE really think lines like "hold on baby your hero's on the way", or "Lady luck sure isnt on his side" would captured the western auidence. this tells me that Kitase & Toriyama dont understand what makes good gameplay. (no offense to those who like FF13.

FF13 had some good points, but this is where i wanted people to really take it: Matsuno's FF12 is the type of the direction that couldve injected new life into the series, him or maybe Hiroyuki Ito, perphaps even Sakaguchi depending on how the Last Story turns out. but my point is that the direction Kitase etc have taken the series in FF13 has sacrified too much story and gameplay in favour of melodrama. even if you didnt like FF12, i think the design of the game, to focus on gameplay and story is so much better than what Kitase and the others have done.

Oh and about the battle system, i'm a yes and a no on that, lol. personally i like paradigm shift, its fun and action based, but it does get very boring after a while. where as ATD was too much based on strategy, i mean the average gamer isnt going to spend ages setting up gamits, there shouldve been something a bit more interactive based. i think a lot of reviews did say that actully. but yes you have a point!!

I've put in these 2 images because Kitase said that Crystal Tools may have been a mistake. comparing the 2, i have to say there seems to be better lighting in FF12. so was crystal tools a mistake, maybe it was!! at least you can see theres more definition in Ashes hands!!

no, I found that all of them sucked; they looked like a bad meshing of Nomura and Yoshida whose styles were NEVER meant to be combined. Maybe I could have forgiven a LOT of things if the plot WAS engaging. But it wasn't. At all. The characters bored me, the events were forgettable, and I found the dialog to be pretentious instead of legitimately intelligent unlike, say, Vagrant Story or the Ogre Battle Saga. And that's what bugged me the MOST about 12 is that there were tinges of Matsuno in there, but most of it was just buried under what seemed to be people who really didn't GET what Matsuno's sense of design philosophy and story-telling was and because of that I found it a little insulting. I mean, that guy was appointed by Sakaguchi himself, that says something. I think Matsuno is legitimately the only guy at Square who could breath new life into the series and take it in a bold new direction that it so sorely needs.

th problem with ur point is on many sites on th internet ff13 hs a bettr user score avg than ff12

and ff12 nevr made famitsu's list of "user voted best games ever", ff13 has made th list twice so far.

to me it luks like fans liked ff13's direction more out of ff13 and ff12.

and isnt edge nt respected aftr they gave mgs4 a 8? (evn though mgs4 deservs a 8)

I think FFXII had a more Western style and the dialogue was much better than in 13. The combat was also much more strategic rather than action-based which I really liked, after I understood it. Actually, after playing Dragon Age, I noticed that they were somewhat similar. I didn't mind FFXIII's approach either, however. Except for the bad writing, I had fun, linear or not, though I think the cheesiness turned off as many people as FFXII's gameplay did.

My answer is that I think there is room for both styles. In fact, they should just have 2 teams all the time and release one game every 2 years or so by alternating, having one team work on a game with a more mature story and Western bent, and the other on one that satisfies more Japanese preferences with younger characters and typical Japanese character archetypes.

yes i prefer turn based, bt ff8 type wher u hve trigger.

they perfectd ff games with ff8, but fans whined and hated ff8 when ff8 ws th most mature, deep and best ff in story/combat/music.