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Forums - General - Question is it hypocritical?

Dodece said:

@HappySqurriel

God damn it all the forum ate my post again. I am going to need to learn to copy paste my entire response before I hit reply. Anyway I have to head off to work, but I will rewrite my response tomorrow, and we can continue this discussion then.


I can simplify my argument for you, what portion of the research in these fields would become invalid if the theory of evolution is incorrect or incomplete? Is the theory of evolution required to understand how the heart functions, to predict weather patterns, or to understand rock formations? Do you need evolution to exist to know that the ancient Egyptians mummified their dead, to recognize that someone is schizophrenic, or for a dolphin to be classified as a mammal? 

Unless a field depends upon evolution in order to operate, you can not say that it is hypocritical to accept that field while denying evolution. In many of these fields of study the bulk of the understanding of the field was done before evolutionary theory came to be, most of the work is done today with little consideration towards evolution, and these fields would continue to operate even if it turns out our planet was an intergalactic Petri-dish.



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No I am afraid that isn't the way it works, and your demonstrating the hypocrisy right in those statements. You just want the final product without the understanding necessary to achieve it. Without the understanding you do not get the final product. No more then you get a car without understanding combustion, or you get rocketry without first developing explosives. While development is haphazard rest assured it is always cumulative. To obtain a result you must first start with understanding.

Yours is a mindset of ends being justified by the absence of means. There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. There is a profound necessity to understand the how and the why that far exceeds the fact. Mostly you do your self a great deal of disservice by pretending that they are not linked. Do we say that someone who buys blood diamonds, but is ignorant of the origen is doing a good thing? Most of us wouldn't we might not hold them entirely responsible for the true cost, but we surely wouldn't argue that is was okay for them to do so. Causing inadvertant greivous harm is still a very bad thing. 

Just like fighting a concept that is bringing results that benefit you personally is hypocritical. We understand the heart, and what ails it in large part due to Natural Selection. From the genetic root of problems, to mutations in the cells, to the effect of random mutation. You go ahead and tell the person their heart has four chambers. I will tell them that due to genetic inheritance they have a higher incidence of heart disease, and that it can be controlled by proper diet, behavior, and environment. I have a feeling that in the case of twins my patient is going to live longer then yours will. Your just squinting to see one single thing. While I have my eyes wide open, and seeing the world.

That is perhaps the fundamental point. Science isn't a book of isolated facts. Science is a tapestry of interconnected threads. That is what makes it profoundly powerful. I can combine the power of multiple disciplines some that rely on natural selection to result in a more complete, and thus a far better result. Try to understand history by just knowing the dates of important things, and I will try to understand all the variables at play. One of us is going to find a very powerful predictive tool. While the other hasn't really learned anything of real value.

P.S. In a previous post you had a factual error. You were probably meaning 10,000 years ago, and not 2000 years ago. We find 2000 year old sites every week. Human beings rebuild on top of older settlements. Basically we build on top of garbage dumps. So as old cities modernize they unearth archaeological sites quite often. Human Civilization was fairly advanced two thousand years ago. You can even make discoveries of 2000 years old architecture at street level. Just clean some walls in an old city like Jerusalem, Cairo, or Rome. Going to ten thousand years ago the pickings are far leaner, but not as much as you probably think. You would be spot on about early hominid studies had you made that comment a decade ago. In either case the number of discoveries is increasing as scientists incorporate Natural Selection into their understanding. They now know better what places are good candidates, and bad candidates.



Dodece,

The truth is that you have the relationship backwards.

We don’t require evolution to understand anatomy, an understanding of anatomy is required to understand evolution. You can catalogue and study the differences between two specimens, understand how these organisms worked, and map the genetic make-up of both creatures without acknowledging evolution; but you require the knowledge from these fields to argue that one species evolved into the other. You can discover fossils of extinct species, create a time-line for their extinction without ever assuming that it evolved into anything (because lots of species would have been a short lived unsuccessful branch); but without this fossil record you can’t argue that evolution exists.

Evolution is a big-picture theory, and (like most big picture theories) it is used as a way to make sense of what would otherwise seem like chaos. Much like I could doubt the big-bang theory and accept that the universe exists, people can doubt the theory of evolution and still accept that the findings of all these other fields are still valid. Where you’re differing is how you explain how all these pieces of science work together to support your big-picture theory; and if creationists want to explain that god was constantly tweaking the animal-life make-up of the planet and introducing and eliminating species at an alarming rate over the last 7,000 years that’s there (somewhat insane) choice.