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Forums - General - Be afraid of Apple...

famousringo said:
Rath said:
Shield laws should undeniably have protected the journalists stuff from being raided (requires a subpoena rather than a search warrant when its dealing with a case of journalism with a source like this) which is the DA's fuck up I guess.

Also I find it a bit dodgy that the police unit (a high tech crimes unit) that raided the house has got Apple as part of the steering committee. Hopefully turns out to be coincidence.

You're assuming that the computers were taken to investigate the 'finder' of the phone. Buying stolen property is a crime in CA, and shield laws are a lot murkier when the journalist is the one being investigated.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/27/can-gizmodo-win-the-iphone-legal-battle/

If a judge ends up agreeing with the EFF on this, just imagine all the fun things that bloggers could do inside their own homes without having to worry about the police showing up. Doesn't seem practical to me in a world where anybody with a computer and an internet connection can become a 'journalist.'

I think the reason a subpoena is required is to specify what information can be taken and investigated and so it can be challenged. It's to stop the state/police intimidating journalists or taking damaging revelations back before they can be released.

@TheRealMafoo. Not above the law, just slightly different under the law. Your crime can and will still be investigated, it's just how its investigated that comes into question I think.

 

Certainly the shield law has had enough of an effect that they have halted the investigation (not looking at Chen's stuff) until they have sorted it out, seems odd to do this after the raid though, you think they would have checked if they could do the raid before they actually did it...



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Rath said:
famousringo said:
Rath said:
Shield laws should undeniably have protected the journalists stuff from being raided (requires a subpoena rather than a search warrant when its dealing with a case of journalism with a source like this) which is the DA's fuck up I guess.

Also I find it a bit dodgy that the police unit (a high tech crimes unit) that raided the house has got Apple as part of the steering committee. Hopefully turns out to be coincidence.

You're assuming that the computers were taken to investigate the 'finder' of the phone. Buying stolen property is a crime in CA, and shield laws are a lot murkier when the journalist is the one being investigated.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/27/can-gizmodo-win-the-iphone-legal-battle/

If a judge ends up agreeing with the EFF on this, just imagine all the fun things that bloggers could do inside their own homes without having to worry about the police showing up. Doesn't seem practical to me in a world where anybody with a computer and an internet connection can become a 'journalist.'

I think the reason a subpoena is required is to specify what information can be taken and investigated and so it can be challenged. It's to stop the state/police intimidating journalists or taking damaging revelations back before they can be released.

@TheRealMafoo. Not above the law, just slightly different under the law. Your crime can and will still be investigated, it's just how its investigated that comes into question I think.

 

Certainly the shield law has had enough of an effect that they have halted the investigation (not looking at Chen's stuff) until they have sorted it out, seems odd to do this after the raid though, you think they would have checked if they could do the raid before they actually did it...

If they have to use a subpoena to criminally investigate Chen, he can invoke the fifth and the police will have no recourse to get at any evidence in Chen's house. If that's the case, it's a good thing he's pretty much publicly confessed to paying $5,000 dollars for stolen property, because any evidence of illegal activities in the Chen household cannot be investigated.

I'm sure there are quite a few shady characters out there who would love to start up a blog to get that kind of immunity and aren't stupid enough to brag about their illegal activities to the whole internet.



"The worst part about these reviews is they are [subjective]--and their scores often depend on how drunk you got the media at a Street Fighter event."  — Mona Hamilton, Capcom Senior VP of Marketing
*Image indefinitely borrowed from BrainBoxLtd without his consent.

famousringo said:
Rath said:

I think the reason a subpoena is required is to specify what information can be taken and investigated and so it can be challenged. It's to stop the state/police intimidating journalists or taking damaging revelations back before they can be released.

@TheRealMafoo. Not above the law, just slightly different under the law. Your crime can and will still be investigated, it's just how its investigated that comes into question I think.

 

Certainly the shield law has had enough of an effect that they have halted the investigation (not looking at Chen's stuff) until they have sorted it out, seems odd to do this after the raid though, you think they would have checked if they could do the raid before they actually did it...

If they have to use a subpoena to criminally investigate Chen, he can invoke the fifth and the police will have no recourse to get at any evidence in Chen's house. If that's the case, it's a good thing he's pretty much publicly confessed to paying $5,000 dollars for stolen property, because any evidence of illegal activities in the Chen household cannot be investigated.

I'm sure there are quite a few shady characters out there who would love to start up a blog to get that kind of immunity and aren't stupid enough to brag about their illegal activities to the whole internet.

A subpoena would be used to gather evidence from his house. subpoena duces tecum



Rath said:
famousringo said:
Rath said:
 

I think the reason a subpoena is required is to specify what information can be taken and investigated and so it can be challenged. It's to stop the state/police intimidating journalists or taking damaging revelations back before they can be released.

@TheRealMafoo. Not above the law, just slightly different under the law. Your crime can and will still be investigated, it's just how its investigated that comes into question I think.

 

Certainly the shield law has had enough of an effect that they have halted the investigation (not looking at Chen's stuff) until they have sorted it out, seems odd to do this after the raid though, you think they would have checked if they could do the raid before they actually did it...

If they have to use a subpoena to criminally investigate Chen, he can invoke the fifth and the police will have no recourse to get at any evidence in Chen's house. If that's the case, it's a good thing he's pretty much publicly confessed to paying $5,000 dollars for stolen property, because any evidence of illegal activities in the Chen household cannot be investigated.

I'm sure there are quite a few shady characters out there who would love to start up a blog to get that kind of immunity and aren't stupid enough to brag about their illegal activities to the whole internet.

A subpoena would be used to gather evidence from his house. subpoena duces tecum

I'm not claiming to have a legal background, but the people in the article I linked to do:

"The three lawyers I interviewed agreed that if the shield laws applied, they would protect bloggers.

Mr. Zimmerman said that if a judge fould that the warrant was invalid, the computers and other seized property would be returned to Mr. Chen — at that point, the authorities may try to subpoena him.

But he added that it was unclear whether the San Mateo authorities wanted to charge Mr. Chen, or whether they just wanted to know who sold Gizmodo the phone.

Either way, Mr. Chen could invoke his Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate himself under the  Constitution, he and other lawyers said."

They subpoena Mr. Chen to show up in court and bring any files relating to his payment of $5,000 for a stolen device, and Chen utters the words of many a famous mafioso, "no, I have a right not to incriminate myself," and the files stay safely at home.



"The worst part about these reviews is they are [subjective]--and their scores often depend on how drunk you got the media at a Street Fighter event."  — Mona Hamilton, Capcom Senior VP of Marketing
*Image indefinitely borrowed from BrainBoxLtd without his consent.

famousringo said:
De85 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
If the guy from Gizmodo had found the phone, then there would be no crime. But he bought a phone from someone that they knew did not own it. That's against the law. It's why the other tech sites said no.

This will cost Apple tens of millions of dollars, all because a company committed a crime, and Apple is the party in all this your calling a dick?

Come on.

I'm really eager to hear why you think this.  Do you think this story magically made people stop wanting iphones, or that when the next hardware revision is released all the apple fans will just give them the middle finger because they already know what it looks like? 

All this was was free publicity for apple.  I have zero sympathy for them.

I certainly don't have the skills to put a number or even a ballpark on the damages, but there are a few different ways that this impacts Apple's bottom line:

1. Nobody is talking about the iPad anymore. Apple's big new product launched just a month ago, but now everybody's talking about the iPhone prototype scandal. You can buy an iPad right now. You can't buy an iPhone 4 right now.

2. Apple's PR strategy is to keep a tight lid on their projects, then get a bunch of press together and get it on every damn media pipe at once. It's worked pretty well for Apple for quite some time now. That strategy is severely disrupted, because we've all seen the iPhone 4 already.

3. The smartphone business moves pretty fast. How much do you suppose a three month early peek at the exterior and internals of a major competitor's product is worth to HTC, RIM, or Nokia? They will use it to help form their own designs and strategies to compete against Apple.

You're right that Apple's getting some publicity, but it's not wholly positive. The whole affair makes Apple look incompetent, and as we can see in this thread, some people even interpret Apple's complaint to the police as some kind of thuggery. I don't think the publicity from this will compensate Apple for having their launch event torpedoed, let alone the cost in trade secrets.

The iPhone earned Apple $5.4 billion in revenue last quarter. If this scandal puts even a 1% dent in the iPhone's sales for a single quarter, that's tens of millions of dollars.

That's not the fault of gizmodo, Apple just mishandled the situation imo. 

As for your point 1, I don't think that the two events are in any way related, I just think that Apple fanboys overhyped the launch of the ipad, and that mainstream interest lagged behind their own.  Public interest in the ipad was waning even without the new iphone scandal. 

Re: #3, I'll bet any amount you name that all other smart phone manufacturers have development cycles longer than three months for their phones.  Any features that will come out in their next revisions were decided on many months, possibly a few years ago.  If they do decide to copy something they've seen in the new iphone it won't hit the market until well after the new iphone.



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John Stewart chimes in. Man is he a funny dude.

http://www.cultofmac.com/jon-stewart-rips-apple-for-iphonegate/40710