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Forums - General - Obama's Lockbox

mirgro on 20 March 2010
HappySqurriel said:
mirgro said:
So you complain when the government uses money it doesn't have, and you also complain when the government tries to use its own money. There is just no appeasing you it seems.

Government doesn't have its own money ... Government only has your money.

When it spends money before it collects it (or spends money that was put aside for something else), the government is building debt for you; and you will be forced to pay for this debt with higher taxes in the future.

That's what I meant. He complains when it incurs debt, and he complains when it tries not to incur any debt.



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Kasz216 on 20 March 2010
mirgro said:
HappySqurriel said:
mirgro said:
So you complain when the government uses money it doesn't have, and you also complain when the government tries to use its own money. There is just no appeasing you it seems.

Government doesn't have its own money ... Government only has your money.

When it spends money before it collects it (or spends money that was put aside for something else), the government is building debt for you; and you will be forced to pay for this debt with higher taxes in the future.

That's what I meant. He complains when it incurs debt, and he complains when it tries not to incur any debt.

They could just... not spend that money. 



HappySqurriel on 20 March 2010
mirgro said:
HappySqurriel said:
mirgro said:
So you complain when the government uses money it doesn't have, and you also complain when the government tries to use its own money. There is just no appeasing you it seems.

Government doesn't have its own money ... Government only has your money.

When it spends money before it collects it (or spends money that was put aside for something else), the government is building debt for you; and you will be forced to pay for this debt with higher taxes in the future.

That's what I meant. He complains when it incurs debt, and he complains when it tries not to incur any debt.

Except in both cases it incurs debt ...

If I know for a fact that I need $40,000 in a couple of years (for college as an example), I get a raise to be able to save up that $40,000, and I choose to spend all of that money, when I need to actually make that payment my only option is to take out a loan for $40,000. The problem is that by taking out a loan and paying interest on it for years it ends up costing several times as much money as saving up in advance would have.



mirgro on 20 March 2010
HappySqurriel said:
mirgro said:
HappySqurriel said:
mirgro said:
So you complain when the government uses money it doesn't have, and you also complain when the government tries to use its own money. There is just no appeasing you it seems.

Government doesn't have its own money ... Government only has your money.

When it spends money before it collects it (or spends money that was put aside for something else), the government is building debt for you; and you will be forced to pay for this debt with higher taxes in the future.

That's what I meant. He complains when it incurs debt, and he complains when it tries not to incur any debt.

Except in both cases it incurs debt ...

If I know for a fact that I need $40,000 in a couple of years (for college as an example), I get a raise to be able to save up that $40,000, and I choose to spend all of that money, when I need to actually make that payment my only option is to take out a loan for $40,000. The problem is that by taking out a loan and paying interest on it for years it ends up costing several times as much money as saving up in advance would have.

Maybe I am missing something, but they are saving up the money in advance and not paying off the debt with those monies.



HappySqurriel on 20 March 2010
mirgro said:
HappySqurriel said:
mirgro said:
HappySqurriel said:
mirgro said:
So you complain when the government uses money it doesn't have, and you also complain when the government tries to use its own money. There is just no appeasing you it seems.

Government doesn't have its own money ... Government only has your money.

When it spends money before it collects it (or spends money that was put aside for something else), the government is building debt for you; and you will be forced to pay for this debt with higher taxes in the future.

That's what I meant. He complains when it incurs debt, and he complains when it tries not to incur any debt.

Except in both cases it incurs debt ...

If I know for a fact that I need $40,000 in a couple of years (for college as an example), I get a raise to be able to save up that $40,000, and I choose to spend all of that money, when I need to actually make that payment my only option is to take out a loan for $40,000. The problem is that by taking out a loan and paying interest on it for years it ends up costing several times as much money as saving up in advance would have.

Maybe I am missing something, but they are saving up the money in advance and not paying off the debt with those monies.

That's an assumption which may not be based in reality ... and (with how the US government is being run) would you really say that someone who is building up $10,000 per year in credit card debt and saving $1,000 a year (in a savings accout) for their children's college is saving any money for their children? What if they spend that $1,000 a year and reduce their credit card debt growth to $9,000 per year?

 



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mirgro on 20 March 2010
HappySqurriel said:
 

That's an assumption which may not be based in reality ... and (with how the US government is being run) would you really say that someone who is building up $10,000 per year in credit card debt and saving $1,000 a year (in a savings accout) for their children's college is saving any money for their children? What if they spend that $1,000 a year and reduce their credit card debt growth to $9,000 per year?

 

I haven't followed fiscal history enough to know whether saved up money goes to paying off debt or not, but it seems like it would work just fine if everything is prioritized alright.

 

If the goal is to pay off the enourmous debt then taxes have to go way up and spending has to go way down. The truth is every single person in this country owes over 40k. That includes old and young alike, literally everyone. That's an average family of four one year worth of income, so to pay it off they must give up four years of their income completely. Something to think about.



Rath on 20 March 2010

Why are you complaining about a provision in the bill which is trying to do exactly what you complain about them not doing?


Tax and spend is far better than just spend. Of course you'd prefer no spending at all but as long as there is a healthcare bill this should be your preferred method of payment for it.



HappySqurriel on 20 March 2010
mirgro said:
HappySqurriel said:
 

That's an assumption which may not be based in reality ... and (with how the US government is being run) would you really say that someone who is building up $10,000 per year in credit card debt and saving $1,000 a year (in a savings accout) for their children's college is saving any money for their children? What if they spend that $1,000 a year and reduce their credit card debt growth to $9,000 per year?

 

I haven't followed fiscal history enough to know whether saved up money goes to paying off debt or not, but it seems like it would work just fine if everything is prioritized alright.

 

If the goal is to pay off the enourmous debt then taxes have to go way up and spending has to go way down. The truth is every single person in this country owes over 40k. That includes old and young alike, literally everyone. That's an average family of four one year worth of income, so to pay it off they must give up four years of their income completely. Something to think about.

Except its not paying down the debt, its reducing the deficit and the debt is still growing at an amazingly rapid pace ... In my example over a 10 year period this is the outcome of the options (assuming 5% interest rate for savings and debt)

year Total Debt Deficit savings networth
0 0.00 10,000.00 1,000.00 1,000.00
1 10,000.00 10,000.00 2,050.00 -7,950.00
2 20,500.00 10,000.00 3,152.50 -17,347.50
3 31,525.00 10,000.00 4,310.13 -27,214.88
4 43,101.25 10,000.00 5,525.63 -37,575.62
5 55,256.31 10,000.00 6,801.91 -48,454.40
6 68,019.13 10,000.00 8,142.01 -59,877.12
7 81,420.08 10,000.00 9,549.11 -71,870.98
8 95,491.09 10,000.00 11,026.56 -84,464.52
9 110,265.64 10,000.00 12,577.89 -97,687.75
10 125,778.93 10,000.00 14,206.79 -111,572.14

 

year Total Debt Deficit savings networth
0 0.00 9,000.00 0.00 0.00
1 9,000.00 9,000.00 0.00 -9,000.00
2 18,450.00 9,000.00 0.00 -18,450.00
3 28,372.50 9,000.00 0.00 -28,372.50
4 38,791.13 9,000.00 0.00 -38,791.13
5 49,730.68 9,000.00 0.00 -49,730.68
6 61,217.22 9,000.00 0.00 -61,217.22
7 73,278.08 9,000.00 0.00 -73,278.08
8 85,941.98 9,000.00 0.00 -85,941.98
9 99,239.08 9,000.00 0.00 -99,239.08
10 113,201.03 9,000.00 0.00 -113,201.03

 

In both cases you end up $110,000 and change in debt

 



Samus Aran on 20 March 2010


All that matters to Obama is that it gets accepted as people(read as voters) will see it as a victory. He doesn't give a damn about the health care it self, it's just a way to win the people over again.

Rath on 20 March 2010
Samus Aran said:


All that matters to Obama is that it gets accepted as people(read as voters) will see it as a victory. He doesn't give a damn about the health care it self, it's just a way to win the people over again.

Obama could have ditched this ages ago and basically have come out politically better off. Or he could have pushed through an extremely watered down version that would have gotten support of some of the republicans. He's a good enough politician to know it too.

I'm pretty sure he's fighting for this out of genuinely wanting this healthcare bill.