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Wyrdness said:

1. Again this is you pushing the it's nostalgia logic and dismissing the game's own merits to argue your point you're making a sweeping assumption about a large chunk of people who played the game despite you admitting it's a good game with out it which is the whole point to begin with and why the game was brought up the game doesn't feel like an expansion because it's a good game on its own merits nostalgia being a thing for you and some others doesn't change this.

1. Curl didn't say he was concerned about BOTW's 'own merits', which you'd expect from any new Zelda, but the repeated use of the same map. And that has to do with the fact that it releases shortly after BOTW, and is on the same engine. That was not the situation in ALBW, which is important to consider when making the comparison. Among other things.
Regardless, I still didn't ignore the game's own merits. I addressed it several times, even in that paragraph.

"What ALBW does differently, outside of the nostalgic elements, would be achievable in the same manner even if it took place in a brand new world unrelated to any other."
"And how it changed up that repeated old content into something different was largely tied to the long passage of time between the original and the new game."

Wyrdness said: 2. You also keep harping on about how long BOTW takes place after the original and I'll tell you again for the final time that is not going to stop what ever changes they planned.

2. Because the trailer didn't indicate that it will go in ALBW's direction with the map. So it's not unreasonable for people to think it may not, based on what they saw.
And even in the case that it does, there's still the matter of revisiting it 3+ years later in the same graphical engine vs 22 years in a vastly different graphical engine.

Wyrdness said: 3. This part is not really going to fly sorry trying to limit debates for a start the negative comments have mainly come from one person so you making it seem like a load of people is an exaggeration secondly we're on the internet and many of us use multiple places for gaming outlooks, if we went only be VGC we'd think that that Switch was going to flop but the wider view on the net was of positive reception which ended up being more of the case and translated into the platform's success. If you only stick to VGC than that's fine don't however expect others to do the same for the sake of your argument.

3. I said that the problem when basing arguments on what other people said outside of VGC is when sources are not provided to back them up. And that tends to happen too frequently.
And we have rules against lying for the sake of arguing. Speaking of which, at first it seemed like you may have made some honest mistakes, but after you claimed you were referencing a comment that didn't even exist before you made your post, and then ignored it when I pointed that out, I'm not sure the consistent misrepresentations/misunderstandings of what I've said aren't deliberate.

And I recall you used the same "people on the internet say" thing before to dismiss someone else's argument, and when asked to provide a link to back up your claim, repeatedly, you said you would post it later, but never did.
I hope that's not the case here though, so I'll ask you to elaborate on that further below.

But before that, I'll give you a chance to explain how you could have been referring to something I said that wasn't present in the post you quoted? Because I edited it into my post afterwards.
And how does what I said there even translate into me "saying there aren't any changes "?
I used terms like "it's possible... more modest... not as drastic", etc.

Now, going back to your claims earlier:

A: In reference to me saying that nostalgia was a thing for me and other people in ALBW, you claimed "for just as many people it's not the same case."
I don't claim to know exactly how many people found the game nostalgic. But you still said just as many. That's oddly specific, so what do you base that on?

B: You also claimed "People did have the same concerns on ALBW".
I find it hard to believe that anyone was worried about ALBW "feeling like a full priced DLC", which is what Curl said in the conversation I replied to. Because the game is made in a brand new engine, among other things.
But go ahead and show me someone who said that, since you claim they had the same concerns.

And regarding general concern/disappointment about re-usage of the same map, I'm sure some people were. 
But for logical reasons the number of people bothered by that should be significantly smaller, because they weren't released just a few years apart and on the same engine.

Since you're seemingly suggesting otherwise, can you back up that claim with a link to a thread that has at least a similar proportion of its posters expressing concern or disappointment over the map?

And regarding "the negative comments have mainly come from one person so you making it seem like a load of people is an exaggeration".
For reference:

NightlyPoe: Honestly, that's disappointing.
VAMatt: If it feels like DLC, I'll be let down.
Shiken: To me it seems like it will be a modified version of the same map. If not, it would have been better off as DLC.
Curl: If it is indeed the same map that'd be a colossal disappointment and I might not even buy it.
Kanemaru: In short, it's just a freaking DLC sold at full price.
Medisti: This greatly damages my interest. I don't think Zelda has EVER done something this lazy before. Keeping in mind MM and ST were whole new worlds with the same assets and engine, and ALBW was 20 years later in a whole new engine. This is the same overworld and engine.
Alternine: Insanely lazy game development
Ljink96: Not good news for me, I spent a countless amount of time in Hyrule already and know it by heart.
Lonely_Dolphin: Given the best part of BotW for me was the exploration, that sounds like a bit of a problem but perhaps they can execute superbly.
couchmonkey: It is a concern, but it could be perfectly fine.

That is a significant amount of people. If anyone is exaggerating here, it's you with 'mainly one person'. And if you're referring to the fact that mainly one of them have repeatedly expressed those concerns, then you're doing that to misrepresent the number, because how many times they've repeatedly said it has nothing to do with this. And I've certainly never mentioned it or based any of my arguments around it.

Wyrdness said:
4: Ironically you claim that you don't recall seeing people being put off by another better looking Zelda game but then bring up LA's Remake where the thread and ND had people complaining about the graphics in comparison to BOTW and that highlights my point and that was on VGC as well.

4: I explained what I meant in the same sentence. I said that; because for those who were happy seeing that Hyrule again after so many years, seeing another Hyrule in another other Zelda's with better graphics is not a substitute for that. I don't feel that Link's Awakening Remake's graphics are ideal either, but it's still a huge leap over the original. That's the thing.

It highlights your point only if you don't understand what I was talking about. Or pretending not to.
I was talking about the experience of seeing something old remade in new, more modern graphics. Surely you can understand the appeal of that?
That's not going to be the case in BOTW2, and yet you replied with "BOTW is already a technically impressive game to begin with" as if that's somehow comparable.

I'm excited about Final Fantasy 7 Remake in very large degree due to how much more advanced it is compared to the original game. Seeing *insert character* in already advanced graphics in FF15 is in no way a substitute for seeing Jessie again in FF7R.

I hope you just misunderstood what I was talking about, because suggesting that seeing the same characters and world again in the same (or very similar) engine is somehow comparable or a substitute, is ridiculous.

5. Now let me tell you why I think it's a good comparison. He was talking about the map yes and ALBW showed that different applications on the same map lead to a different type of experience and great game that stands on its own merits with out nostalgia so yes in this case ALBW is a good example because BOTW would be approached in the same way, you can keep saying nostalgia but that alone can not carry the game for the 30 or so hours you play through it no amount of nostalgia can do that if the game has the concerns that curl is bringing up the game has to stand on it's merits.

5. Speaking of harping on about nostalgia, among the things I said, that's the only thing you're acknowledging here. And repeatedly, and as if that was all I based my argument on. When in actuality, it was one of three points, and the smallest paragraph of the bunch.
This reminds me of something similar you've done before, that I forgot until now...

Anyway, let me put it this way instead:

If the user had only specified one specific element, I wouldn't have disagreed. But there's a lot more than that to consider with ALBW.

And I'm saying it's a poor example because he was talking to Curl, who was worried that it would feel like full priced DLC.
I feel there's about a 0% chance he'd be worried about ALBW feeling like full priced DLC, because it's in a brand new engine, and released so long after the original. And yes, regardless of whether or not there would have been any significant changes made to the map. Or whether he'd end up liking those changes or not. Because it's still very obviously a game built from the ground up on a new engine completely different from the original.

With a new story, new characters, new weapons, puzzles, dungeons, in a brand new vastly different engine, it would never feel like 'just DLC', no matter how they shaped the map.

I played A Link to the Past many years ago. So when I found out that ALBW took place in the very same world, I was very excited to see it again, and in a new engine.
If I'm concerned about BOTW2 and someone tells me "Don't worry, look at ALBW", I would think "I was never worried about that in ALBW to begin with. In fact, it was the exact opposite. I was excited to see it again, even if it had a nearly identical map."
I imagine Curl would not feel that ALBW was going to be a full priced DLC. Regardless of whether there were structural changes or not, because the game is built on a brand new, much more advanced engine than the original, and came out so long after it.
So even if the map had been pretty much identical, the fact that it was now in 3D, and revisited after so long, I would have still loved it.
In fact, there are times where I want to revisit the (pretty much) same world again in games shortly after they ended, which I talked to @Bristow9091 about recently. Yakuza is an example.

Whatever unique things ALBW does with the map doesn't change that. It made it even better, but I digress.
I'm not disagreeing that there are elements in it that BOTW2 could use.

But it's not like I can only look at the positives, and ignore any bad comparisons/different circumstances. So I'd rather pick a game where for example the prospect of a remake of an old nostalgic world couldn't overshadow any concern with the repeated map. As it could in ALBW.
Other Zelda games have elements that can be applied here as well, such as OOT's time traveling. But the circumstances are too different for me to name drop that game as a good example. The time traveling specifically sure, but not so much the rest.

Games like the Yakuza series, or FFX-2, come to mind, as they're released shortly after their previous entries. What they also have in common with BOTW2, that ALBW doesn't, is that they are continuations of their stories, that further develop the characters, and run on the same/similar engine.
The circumstances between those games were seemingly more similar than the circumstances between ALTTP and ALBW. Same thing for fans expectations when waiting for the games to come out.

6. The reason Nintendo chose that map was also not because of nostalgia but because the testing template for the central mechanic was of an area in ALLTP resulting in Miyamoto telling the team to just base the new game off ALTTP. All you've seen of BOTW is a cavern like area that wasn't in the original and Hyrule Castle being lifted both would be significant changes to things already.

I don't know where you read that, but in an iwataasks interview, Tominaga said that the dungeons he created with enter-the-walls-ideas were "not constrained by the world of The Legend of Zelda." He told Miyamoto he would make 50 more of those, but Miyamoto then told him to base them on ALTTP instead.

Aounuma also said that Miyamoto had been challenging him to make "a 2D Zelda game like A Link to the Past playable in stereoscopic 3D, ever since the Nintendo 3DS came out." 

So ALTTP had been on his mind for a while.
Obviously, Nintendo were not oblivious to the nostalgia of going back to that world when making the game. They know that will be a major draw for people, and they've obviously designed the game with that in mind.

Last edited by Hiku - on 15 June 2019