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Forums - Sony Discussion - The Beauty and the Beast, PS3 programing.

naznatips said:
HappySqurriel said:

Everyone and their dog bitched about how hard the PS2 was to program for ... That is until the PS2 sold so well that Publishers told developers they HADE to produce a high-quality PS2 version of (pretty much) every game. It never mattered that the PS2 was harder to develop for than the Dreamcast, XBox and Gamecube (or that the PS2 was less powerful than the XBox and Gamecube) developers were told to "Suck it up and learn how to program" because the PS2 version was the most important version.

This generation is playing out quite a bit differently ...


Agreed, I remember hearing a lot of whining about PS2 development.  It didn't stop until it got to the point that the PS2 was so far ahead that developers had no choice.  However, that kind of dominance is out of reach for the PS3, so the developer situation could be tough this time.

Now that it's been brought up, I DO rememebr developers bitching about PS2. I'd completely forgotten. Of course the situation is different now, but...

...I guess there will be half-assed Maddens for a couple of years.

 



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Truthsayer said:
I want to see sony declare bankruptcy!
they make a profit every fiscal year so it will NEVER HAPPEN.

 



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NorthStar said:
It will really only take one developer to crack open the PS3's cell processor to get the other developers to follow suit. really the Next gen is not out of reach for any system to dominate. A few great games that can not be done on another peice of Hardware is all that it takes for consumers and developers to stand up and take notice

It is really not that simple ...

Generally speaking, to get maximum performance on a distributed system you end up having to drastically modify most algorithms and in doing so you generally introduce concurrency issues and race conditions which are not easily solved. If handled incorrectly you may end up having bugs appear through out your software which are difficult to debug.

On top of this, in spite of not being that large of a piece of software, game engines are full of highly complicated algorithms that are so complicated because they're based on advanced mathematical concepts and are already highly optimized.

Epic has some of the highest talent and most experienced developers in the world and they're having trouble with the Cell; it may take years and several iterations before middleware companies have solutions for most developers to get good performance out of the PS3 (if they even care at that point in time).



As far as one dev cracking open Cell.

Insomniacs, Naughty dog, SquareEnix, Kojma productions, Media molecule, Polyphony Digital. Are all pretty much doing it right now.

As far as Epic, just look at UT3!



The bitching about the PS2 was only the first year, and that was due to two factors:

1. The VRAM focused size over speed (look up embedded dynamic memory). Developers were used to size, like on the PC, but once they caught on, it wasn't a problem, especially since the GC used the same type of RAM, and the GC was designed to be easy to work with.*

2. The PS2 didn't have things like anti-aliasing, and 8-way render passing, built in. Yet it turned out the PS2 didn't have them built in because it was designed to do them manually with the CPU's two vector units, instead of automatically with the GC's, and Xbox's, GPU API. Once they caught on how to do that, they just applied them to any game that needed it, just as they did with the other systems.

So it wasn't that they had no choice. They actually got used to the system, just before the GC and Xbox launched, so the ease of use for those systems was made moot (as lack of texture compression was not that hard to work around).

With the PS3, it is also a matter of getting used to, but with little to offer consumers, and something big to drive them away, the system would likely have an exodus like the N64, if not for the fact that developers are deliberately supporting all systems.**



*Of course the GC had to be worked with in the first place, which is why developers largely have to get used to the Wii.

**It's to ensure that 3rd-parties have as much power as the hardware developers, no matter who is in the lead.



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HappySqurriel said:
NorthStar said:
It will really only take one developer to crack open the PS3's cell processor to get the other developers to follow suit. really the Next gen is not out of reach for any system to dominate. A few great games that can not be done on another peice of Hardware is all that it takes for consumers and developers to stand up and take notice

It is really not that simple ...

Generally speaking, to get maximum performance on a distributed system you end up having to drastically modify most algorithms and in doing so you generally introduce concurrency issues and race conditions which are not easily solved. If handled incorrectly you may end up having bugs appear through out your software which are difficult to debug.

On top of this, in spite of not being that large of a piece of software, game engines are full of highly complicated algorithms that are so complicated because they're based on advanced mathematical concepts and are already highly optimized.

Epic has some of the highest talent and most experienced developers in the world and they're having trouble with the Cell; it may take years and several iterations before middleware companies have solutions for most developers to get good performance out of the PS3 (if they even care at that point in time).


You've pretty much hit the nail on the head in regards to multicore/threaded programming. Many current solutions to this really suck, and it wasn't until the last few years that setups which gain significant benifits from paralell processing were commonplace (as in, available to the average computer/console user). Ultimately I think it is in the compiler where a lot of the low level work should be handled, just how like moving a lot of complex optimisations have ended up there and have largely removed the need for programmers to return to their code and tighten loops, possibly even reducing them to assembler.

You also need a programming language that handles paralellism well. A lot of functional languages can be broken up well, but given games generally are written in C/C++ (and while I don't know personally, I could pretty mcuh guarentte thats what you'll get in the console SDKs), you are going to have issues. I suppose if you were really keen, you could almost write code as if it were functional, but even still I'm unsure how well it would work.



Pretty good and accurate summary article!

If you want to dig deeper I recommend a fellow Amigan's in depth articles on the Cell processor:

http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cell/Cell0_v2.html

And IBM's Cell pages:

http://www.research.ibm.com/cell/



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

Also this is a pretty interesting SPE thread with some PS3 game developers contributing to the discussion:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=42523



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

ssj12 said:
Truthsayer said:
I want to see sony declare bankruptcy!
they make a profit every fiscal year so it will NEVER HAPPEN.

 


 Wanna make a bet on this fiscal year?  (net loss, not bankruptcy.  I totally disagree with Truthsayer, but the wager intrigues me) 



PS3: 5.51m/51w, avg 108,039/w (up 239)
360: 12.93m/102w, avg 126,764/w (up 625), leads PS3 by 7.42m (up 70k), avg lead 18,725/w (up 386)
Wii: 13.52m/51w, avg 265,098/w (dn 1,102), leads PS3 by 8.01m (up 90k), avg lead 157,059/w (dn 1,341)

If 360 sales stabilize, PS3 sales increases needed to pass 360 by...
01/08: (008w) +875.8%, 04/08: (021w) +344.4%, 07/08: (034w) +219.3%, 10/08: (047w) +163.5%
01/09: (060w) +131.8%, 04/09: (073w) +111.4%, 07/09: (085w) +098.1%, 10/09: (099w) +086.7%
If Wii sales stabilize, PS3 sales increases needed to pass Wii by...
01/08: (008w) +1072.%, 04/08: (021w) +498.4%, 07/08: (034w) +363.4%, 10/08: (047w) +303.1%
01/09: (060w) +269.0%, 04/09: (073w) +246.9%, 07/09: (085w) +232.6%, 10/09: (099w) +220.3%
If PS2 sales freeze, Wii sales increases needed to pass PS2 (as of Mar07, 108.4m) by...
2008: (008w) +4373.8%, 2009: (060w) +0496.5%, 2010: (112w) +0219.6%, 2011: (165w) +0116.9%
2012: (217w) +0064.9%, 2013: (269w) +0033.1%, 2014: (321w) +0011.5%, 2015: (376w) -0004.8%
At +0% it will pass it in 358w, the week ending September 19th, 2014, at an age of 409w (7y44w).
Current age of PS2: 7y37w.

Last update: Week ending November 3, 2007

@ WiteoutKing

Wanna make a bet on this fiscal year? (net loss, not bankruptcy. I totally disagree with Truthsayer, but the wager intrigues me)


I think Sony as a whiole will remain profitable, the R&D done on the PS3 has already been paid for, so their gaming devision may break even with PSP and PS2 profits compensating for losses on PS3 production and further investments.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales